vinyl/ turntable questions! (mbv too)

[wut wut]

ok, so let me set this up a bit:
i bought a turntable at a garage sale 4 years ago solely for the purpose of scratching records (or as i liked to call it, "djing"). it was 20 bucks (or 10, i can't remember), and the cover (the lid? the plastic, usually see-through top) fell off and broke while i was carrying it home, so no more top.
well, eventually i discovered the wonders of vinyl, and have since stopped scratching '70s compilation records, and in turn have started "seriously purchasing."

questions:
1. is my needle busted from "djing" my records? how can i tell if it's broken? does it sound different? does it look different?

2. how can i tell if it's out of tune?--sometimes i think the pitch will sound different than some of the same records i have on cds. is tuning it a simple procedure?

3. should i get a new top for it?

4. i recently purchased a copy of my bloody valentine's 'ecstacy and wine' with an import sticker on it for $16. is this a legit copy, or is it just some illegitimate reprint? side b is pressed off center, and on both sides it seems to go into "overdrive" and it can't take it so it just starts to buzz. wha happened? can the off center pressing (further) hurt my needle?

5. i know the easiest solution is to just buy a new turntable, which i plan on doing, but they cost some money. maybe if i find a decent one at another garage sale i'll pick it up. are there any cheap reccomendations? where can i pick these up?

thanks!

[Patrick]

Hi wut wut,

I can answer your turntable questions, but I just need a bit more detail.

What brand and model of turntable is it?

What brand and model of cartridge/stylus do you have?

Some needles (styli) are manufactured specifically to handle back-cueing. Famous examples in the radio and DJ worlds are the Stanton 618EEE and Ortofon Concorde Nightclub, among many others.

If your turntable has one of these, it's unlikely that the scratching specifically damaged the needle. If your needle is damaged, you WILL hear the difference, assuming it will even track the groove.

On the other hand, needles do wear out after years of use, and should be replaced regularly. You'll probably hear a substantial leap in sound quality when you replace your needle.

Needles can be (comparatively) expensive, however, since they are actually one of the most labor-intensive parts of making a cartridge. So sometimes, depending on your cartridge, you can get more bang for your buck if you upgrade your cart.

On the tuning question, the most important things are to make sure the turntable is level (use a level on the portion of the platter where the needle tracks the record), that your cartridge is properly aligned (if it's a plug-in model then that's automatic), that you're applying the right tracking force (you check with the cartridge manufacturer to find out that number) and that anti-skating is set properly.

If you have a belt-drive turntable, it's possible that any fluctuations you hear are due to an old belt. Replacement belts for nearly every table ever made are available from online sources.

As I said, more details, and I can be more specific.

Best
Patrick

[wut wut]

yo patrick, thanks for the info!

i checked the brand, it's called 'SOUNDESIGN', and i'm not sure if this is the model or not, but afterwards it says 'PLL'

i really know very little about turntables, so i can only hope that this is a brand that you are familiar with...

and rather than buying a new needle and replacement parts, i'd like to put the money into buying a new one. do you reccommend anything $200 or under?

also, about the off-center record; do record stores exchange off-center presses for store credit or a replacement? or is it just something i have to always take a chance and live with?

[Patrick]

First, about the off-center record. Stores _should_ offer a free exchange for it, but they may not, especially for an import. Imports are frequently not returnable to the distributor. Furthermore, many distributors and labels will not accept _any_ returns on vinyl from stores. (Matador does accept returns, but ADA, our distributor, does not, so for a Matador release you might be OK depending on where the store got their copy from.)

Now onto the turntable. Soundesign was a budget brand from the '70s and '80s and you're almost certainly better off replacing the whole thing, as you suspect.

I usually recommend the Thorens TD-145, TD-150 or TD-160, all usually available on eBay. These are '70s turntables that were built to last. Belt drive and 3-point suspension. A very decent OEM tonearm. You'd still have to get a cart. Last time I checked these went for $150-200 in good condition, but that was a year ago and with supply and demand the way they are, the prices might have gone up.

The only catch with these superb tables is that you may have to do some work on them, and that could take you over budget. A new cartridge - say you get a Grado Black for $30 or so. A new belt, if needed will run you $24.

You could go for cheaper Technics automatic direct-drive turntables from the '80s which probably cost less. However they are not as well built and will not sound as good. Nor can I help you so much with setup. On the other hand, for $100 or so you might luck out and get a working unit.

The cheapest new TT that I know of that's any good is the Music Hall MMF 2.1, which goes for about $299 including arm and (so-so) cartridge. However one of the Thorenses above will blow its socks off.

Hope this helps - sorry, but good analog doesn't come cheap.

Patrick

[wut wut]

ain't it the truth!

i looked at some of those thorenses on ebay; look pretty nice

thanks again, patrick

[Patrick]

Good luck wut wut - make sure you buy from a reputable seller and that the table is advertised in good condition. As I said, those Thorenses were built like tanks, but 30 years is a long time for a piece of mechanical or electrical equipment. You won't get any guarantees on eBay (or rarely), but you should be able to read between the lines as to whether the table is functioning or not. Secure packing in shipment is also a must - be sure that the seller knows to pack the platter separately from the rest of the table, to screw down the locking screws for shipment (two screws on the bottom of the unit), and double-box with plenty of foam or peanuts between the two boxes.

Some more recommendations for cheap but good cartridges (street prices, not list prices):

Grado Black - $35
Grado Green - $54
Audio-Technica 440ML - $90
Stanton 500 MkII - $35
Ortofon OM10 - $64

The Grados will be more liquid and refined, better on female vocals; the Stanton will be more raw, swinging and rock'n'roll. The AT is probably the best all-rounder with the most detail, but of course at a price; the Ortofon is similar but more balanced all round (some people find the ATs just a bit too detailed).

Patrick

[the Pawnbroker]

I just got a Thorens TD 166 Mk II. It had not been played in at least 10 years, although it was kept in good condition, other than some dust on the cover/cables. Prior to that, it probably had about 5 years of light-moderate use, possibly without a cartridge/stylus change.

I transported it to my home via the back seat of my car, resulting in some bouncing. From the discussion above, I see I should have locked it down.

In any event, I played it and it sounds good to my inexperienced ears, with the exception of audible crackling (which is probably the record's fault).

Nevertheless, I wanted to consider maintenance/ upgrade/ recalibration, and had some questions.

1. I want to reset tracking force/anti-skate. Is there a way to find out what the settings are for an old cartridge when you don't have the original cartridge packaging? If there is not, can it be done by ear?

2. As far as maintenance/upgrade, what should I invest in first, a disc doctor cleaning system (my records are mostly 25-30+ years old), a new cartridge, or something else?

3. I am also in the market to upgrade my speaker cable from genero stuff to some type of (relatively) inexpensive Straightwire. Given my budget for all such upgrades ($100-$200 -- the lower figure is preferred), should I do this instead/before/after the turntable mods?

Any help is much appreciated.

[Patrick]

Oh wow, great turntable.

First order of business is to change the stylus or cartridge - it almost certainly needs to be replaced. (If it is new and in good condition then that's not a problem.) Can you tell the make and model? It's probably marked on the cartridge body.

I can also get info on recommended tracking force and antiskate settings if you can tell me the model.

Second thing to do is make sure it's aligned properly - you can download and print out the paper alignment protractor at enjoythemusic.com for this purpose.

Third thing is to lubricate the platter bearing. Lift off the platter. You are now staring at the subplatter. Remove the belt. Now you lift out the subplatter. This _may_ lift right out (slowly, carefully, pulling straight up), or there might be a little metal piece that locks it in. In which case you will have to turn the entire table on its side, remove the four screws holding in the baseboard, locate the screw holding the little metal piece, and remove that.

You've now removed the platter and subplatter. The hole in the center where the subplatter shaft sat is the bearing well, which should contain (or once contained) oil. Take a Q-tip and dip it in and clean out/remove all the old oil.

Now, using an eye dropper, add one drop of Mobil #1 motor oil to the bearing well. Add a drop or drops to the subplatter shaft so that it's lubricated all around and along its length.

Carefully, slowly lower subplatter back into the bearing well (if you had to remove the locking piece, don't bother to put it back - it's insignificant). Don't push, let it slowly drop in. Rotate subplatter a few times slowly to make sure of good, lubricated contact between shaft and well.

Replace belt. Replace platter. Play records.

Last thing to do is replace the belt if it's showing any signs of age (first thing to go will be the ability to switch to 45 RPM). You can get new ones for $28 (expensive I know) from elexatelier.com.

Patrick

[the Pawnbroker]

Originally posted by Patrick
Oh wow, great turntable.

First order of business is to change the stylus or cartridge - it almost certainly needs to be replaced. (If it is new and in good condition then that's not a problem.) Can you tell the make and model? It's probably marked on the cartridge body.

I believe the make is ADCOM but I will verify the make/model tonight.

I can also get info on recommended tracking force and antiskate settings if you can tell me the model.

Second thing to do is make sure it's aligned properly - you can download and print out the paper alignment protractor at enjoythemusic.com for this purpose.

Third thing is to lubricate the platter bearing. Lift off the platter. You are now staring at the subplatter. Remove the belt. Now you lift out the subplatter. This _may_ lift right out (slowly, carefully, pulling straight up), or there might be a little metal piece that locks it in. In which case you will have to turn the entire table on its side, remove the four screws holding in the baseboard, locate the screw holding the little metal piece, and remove that.

You've now removed the platter and subplatter. The hole in the center where the subplatter shaft sat is the bearing well, which should contain (or once contained) oil. Take a Q-tip and dip it in and clean out/remove all the old oil.

Now, using an eye dropper, add one drop of Mobil #1 motor oil to the bearing well. Add a drop or drops to the subplatter shaft so that it's lubricated all around and along its length.

Carefully, slowly lower subplatter back into the bearing well (if you had to remove the locking piece, don't bother to put it back - it's insignificant). Don't push, let it slowly drop in. Rotate subplatter a few times slowly to make sure of good, lubricated contact between shaft and well.

Replace belt. Replace platter. Play records.
Patrick

These are exactly the kind of simple instructions I was looking for. Thanks a ton. I think I will be addressing the turntable before looking at speaker cable and other stereo toys.

Vinyl is fun.