Erik Satie

[tinobeat]

OK, so I want to get Gymnopedies (sp?) and other Satie works, but my knowledge of the classical music world is pretty limited. And I know how important having the right performers performing the pieces. There's a veritable assload of releases of the same thing, and I have no idea how to even begin knowing who's better performing the work.

to go off on a tangent based on that: I know this is off the beaten Matador path, but I'd love to know some guidelines about buying classical music. Any labels to seek out? avoid? are old vinyl copies worth seeking out over the CD sets? any good online "zines" (though they wouldn't be called that) about the stuff? I also know that the term "classical" is so freaking broad...

I'm interested in some more minimal stuff, like Satie, but not so minimal as to go into Glass or Reich land. Minimal in terms of instrumentation. I'm thinking along the lines of Bach's cello suites or Chopin pieces for solo piano. space...

all this time all I do is geek out over the indie rock and the psych oddities, but I'm really lacking in a good working knowledge of old composers and their works.

sorry this is all so general, but I'd love to strike up discussion about these things with anyone who knows more than I do about the stuff.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

$5 says Patrick comes to the rescue.

Satie is someone I'm interested in, as well. My knowledge is mostly the noisy end of "20th Century"/avant-garde, though.

[Che]

"After the Rain.... the soft sounds of Erik Satie"
Played by Pascal Rogé on piano

came out on London in 96'

includes
gymnopédie 1-3
gnossienne 1-6
Nocturne I-V
and some other gems.

Where's that $5 Mr HCI?

[tinobeat]

see, that's the problem with Satie too, is that you get these compilations of pieces with really cheesy titles that make it seem like a new age record or something.

I'll definitely look into that one, though.

thanks!

[Miss Tasty Princess]

Originally posted by Che
Where's that $5 Mr HCI? I didn't say he'd answer first! :) If he has not responded to this thread within one year, I will send you $5. Maybe.

[Kameek N Deesha]

Everything by Satie
Everything (it's all pretty much the same) by Morton Feldman
Piano Sonatas by Beethoven
Anything by György Ligeti
Aphex Twin's AMBIENT 2 release
That funny Momus song where he mentions "MC Erik Satie"
etc

[Paul]

I can't place enough emphasis on the fact you need to hear Henryk Gorecki's Symphony No. 3, preferrably the 1992 recording with Dawn Upshaw's vocals (stirmonster would agree).

[Patrick]

Geez, classical music, where to start. Yes, it's all about the performances.

The labels dictate how things are recorded, and more recently the quality and selection. But pretty much all the major labels (Columbia, RCA, EMI), and many other labels that were absorbed into the majors (Mercury, Deutsche Grammophon, Decca) had superb classical-music departments and put out literally thousands of unbelievable record.

What's more, since classical music lovers got out of vinyl first (and treated it better than anyone else), and often replaced vast vinyl collections wholesale with the CD reissues, the secondhand classical vinyl market is second to none. Not as great as it used to be - it's been a while since those collections were replaced - but you can still do incredibly well - at record stores, garage sales, thrift stores, flea markets, etc. And since everything is often 50 cents or a buck even in mint condition, you can afford to try out 20 records at a time and figure out what styles, composers, performances and labels you like.

The flipside of this - no pun intended - is that even the mintest classical record will show up a speck of dust in the quiet passages, and only good turntables and good-condition needles will track fortissimo orchestral tutti (not to mention opera!) in the inner grooves of an LP -- which is of course, where the loudest passages often occur, at the end of the piece.

So, back to choice of music. The other thing about classical is that the best performances are often from a long time ago, when classical was more vital than it is today (and not coincidentally accounted for a greater portion of the music market). Roughly speaking, the great performances of most classical repertoire in the recorded era occurred from 1930 to 1970.

Interestingly, some of the best recordings are also from a while ago, though unfortunately not as far back as 1930. But the "Golden Age" of stereo, evinced in such stellar 3-mike, ribbon mike, tube mastering, non-multi-track recordings as the classic Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereos in the US, and EMI ASD, Decca SXL and Columbia SAX in the UK, occurred from roughly 1954 to 1968, before people figured out how to overdub and the thrill of live performance succumbed to 1970s multitrack (and growing complacency in the musicians, per my comments on performance above).

These performances are all highly collectible on LP at least in their true first pressings, which have the best sound, but have all been reissued on CD, often at mid-price, and this is one place I suggest you could start. Just about anything recorded for Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo will likely be at least an interesting performance and often a great one. And the sound will be flat-out amazing.

In general, I suggest you think of composers that you know you're interested in, and then start buying multiple performances of that work on cheap classical vinyl. It's no risk, and it's pretty amazing to see how different people took different pieces. The range is huge, and it's a gateway into the music itself, since you learn to think about it.

There are certain obvious touchstones as well in the repertory, e.g.:

Beethoven - symphonies 1-9, all piano sonatas, the 5 piano concerti, string quartets (late ones are difficult)

Brahms - symphonies 1-4, any piano music, any chamber music (that's string quartets, piano quartets etc)

Mozart - just about anything, if you're me

Bach - just about anything, period. But you could start with Goldberg Variations performed by Glenn Gould, one of the great classical performances and recordings of all time - get the original one he did as a young man in 1955, not the one he did at the end of his life in 1982. It's a mid-price CD - perhaps even a budget-price. You can find the vinyl, but it's invariably beaten up, because this is a recording that people played to DEATH.

Rachimaninov - 4 piano concerti, any solo piano music

20th Century avant-garde composerse - Ligeti, Stockhausen, Nono, Crumb etc. Not my cup of tea but have proved interesting to rock fans looking t get into classical

Another way to do this is by performer:

Toscanini (conductor) - electrifying, sound is not great, buy on CD, not the very common and terrible-sounding LPs. Get the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies on CD if you can find them.

Vladimir Horowitz (piano) - the Toscanini of piano. Genius, esp his Scarlatti, Scriabin and Rachmaninov

Glenn Gould (piano) - see comments under Bach above. He made some very weird recordings too. Always interesting. You can buy on vinyl or CD. You can also watch the movie "32 Short Films About Glenn Gould"

Yevgeny Mravinsky (conductor) - dictator-like martinet who ran the Leningrad Philharmonic for half a century or so, unyielding but supreme performances - look for Tchaikovsky symphonies 4-5-6, available as a DG set; they will pin you to the wall.

There's much more, but hopefully this will provide a way in.

Oh yeah, Satie. I'm not an expert, but the word is 2 recordings:

1. Reinbert de Leeuw (Phillips CD). Unfortunately unlike many classical CDs this is actually at full-price. Supposed to be incredible, very slow, almost stationery.

2. Aldo Ciccolini (EMI CD). Budget to midprice. The exact opposite of de Leeuw. Very fast, incredible ease of playing.

Enjoy. Ask more questions. It's hard to just write an introduction to such a huge subject... would be easier if people had more specific questions.

Patrick

[Che]

I agree, song number 6 on disc one is amazing.
Methinks they actually have song titles now.

[Che]

There goes my $5. Patrick responded.

On a new note, I have a question, views, opinons glady accepted.
I used to get into huge arguments about classical music, why so many people would record the same stuff over and over and over again. Usually exactly the same. Anyway, here is my question, if the composer, say Mozart wrote a piece that had an error in it, a wrong note that you knew was obviously wrong and can/could be easily corrected (but he chose to leave it that way on paper, we don't know how he played it). When you play/record it, would you play it with the error, or would you modify it to sound correct, hence modifying the composers original version?

[Patrick]

Well Che, I have to disagree with your statement "usually exactly the same".

It's true that THESE DAYS when classical music is recorded, it often sounds very similar to early versions, especially of the warhorses. The reason for this is the existence of the recorded medium itself, and the spread of recordings to the masses at cheaper and cheaper prices from 1950 to the 1980s and beyond.

When the music was all live all the time, the performances differed from each other drastically. But now that everyone has a recording of Beethoven's 5th or whatever (actually a work that was rarely performed before the 1930s, believe it or not), everyone has a certain idea of how it should sound, and more and more recordings sound like that idea.

One good thing that has happened to make classical renditions differ from one another is the advent of historical research into the way people performed music in the past. We now know that Bach was performed with much smaller ensembles and different instruments than modern-day orchestras, and there are people who record his works now in ways attempting to be historically informed. Gut strings, not steel strings. Wood flutes. Danish organs and Flemish organs. No vibrato on vocals or strings. Portamento completely out (unless you're researching early 20th-century performance practice, in which case it is most definitely in). Whether or not these performances are "better" or not, they are most certainly interesting, and most certainly different from the recordings with huge orchestras and massive choruses etc. in the past.

And yes, there is also research into original manuscripts and mistakes - and not just mistakes, but different versions of a given work written or even published by a composer, often with massive changes each time.

As to the "wrong" note, who is to second-guess Mozart's intentions? Usually you can compare several MSS with a printed edition etc. and make an educated guess. And some performers adhere to the score religiously, whereas others (but not so many these days!) liberally change them, coming up with something slightly different or very different, and that can be good too.

Patrick

[mac m]

re: Satie, i like this one on Phillips that's the Gymnopédies No1-3 played by someone named Reinbert de Leeuw. slow as molasses, pretty cool. haven't compared it to other recordings of same.

searching for the Satie cd you want on amazon sucks, you have to sift through literally hundreds of fine titles like "Sensual Classics II" and "Passport to Serenity".

not that i wouldn't want a passport to serenity sometimes but yeesh.

i like the Glenn Gould Goldberg Variations dbl-cd thing where you get both performances, and lots of liner notes.

[Che]

Bad choice of words on "usually exactly the same"
I agree. To the untrained ear they can sound very similar, I have an untrained ear and being tone deaf doesn't help I guess.
On having never seen a true live symphonic performance (though I would like to) I would prefer to listen to it as intended or as close as possible to the original without having a second party (so to speak) interpretation.
This indeed is, as you say a huge subject, but very interesting.

[tinobeat]

wow Patrick. Thanks!

I was hoping to have more specific questions, knowing that asking about classical in general is like saying "so, tell me about people, what are they like?"

Thanks for reminding me about Glenn Gould. I saw that movie maybe 7-8 years ago, its reallly beautiful. I'll look into those Bach performances.

for the most part, you totally hit the nail on the head as far as answering what to look for in recordings (time-period, conductors/performers, how to look for the stuff), so thanks a bunch. I'll have to print that post out for when I go to the store next time...

Maybe I'll go down to the Salvo this weekend and see how many dollar records I can find.

I think the de Leeuw Gymnopdies is the one I heard. I'll have to hit that one, I love the slow, almost sedated quality of that.

I'd love to learn more, so I'll definitely pipe up again when I think of it...

[Patrick]

Mac -

Try the classical "power search" - click on the "music" tab from the Amazon front page, then the "classical tab", and then a link appears under "SEARCH CLASSICAL" marked "Classical Power Search".

Then you get a multi-field search and you can put de Leeuw under performer and Satie under composer...

Best
Patrick

[Kameek N Deesha]

And this is helpful, though you still have to wade through lots of seeming repetition:

http://www.allclassical.com/

I remember the first time I heard the Satie song that Folk Implosion/Barlow sampled for that "KIDS" track... I kept waiting for the goddam beat to kick in... heh...

also, there's this:

http://mc.clintock.com/first_floor/study_1/artwork/more_artwork.php

And from Momus:

"MC Escher"

"The conventions of rap dictate that every MC who takes the mic
Claims to be the best, fills his set with hype
It's OTT

But if we imagine a world where every MC really is badder and fresher
Than every other, it just gets madder and madder
One of those rooftop salmon ladders
Drawn by...

MC Escher
The impossible rapper
Ain't nobody does it better
Under pressure
MC Escher
He's so clever
Gives you pleasure
Forever

So watch the water flow round and round
Without the need for pressure
This world of perpetual motion
Is just a beautiful illusion

MC Escher
The impossible rapper
Ain't nobody does it better
Under pressure
MC Escher
He's so clever
Gives you pleasure
Forever

Karl Marx and Biz Markie would probably agree
Equality has yet to make much of a mark on the world of the MC

Spin the turntable round and round
He's got a Boss Dr Sample underground
He's got a bag full of patterns to give the ladies pleasure
It's the rise and fall and rise of the house of Escher

Ain't nobody does it better
Not MC Eric Satie or MC Franz Kafka
Gives you pleasure forever"

[SirPatrickSpens]

Satie is fine, better even sometimes, & a groovy "gateway drug" (heh). Patrick gave you a swell intro & perhaps when I have more time I'll add a few things to his list. Meanwhile, if you start w/Satie, you can (& should) go a cpl ways, sticking strictly w/solo piano -->

Federicou Mompou --> esp. "Musica Callada," which is like Satie w/depth tho' you may argue that that's beside the point. Herbert Henck on ECM is my favorite.

Isaac Albeniz "Iberia" --> the sound of mad virtuosic Spain. The genius Esteban Sanchez is best but much easier to find Alicia De Larrocha is also fine.

Messiaen "Vingt Regards..." --> uh, don't worry about the Jesus part for now; get Haukon Austnbo on Naxos to start.

Schubert --> everything from D. 840 on, which is confusing I know but just look for LATE Schubert piano sonatas. This is, properly played, some dark dark, haunted & haunting shit. I like this stuff waaaaay more than Beethoven. Hmmmm, I'd say Cat Power is probably closest to Schubert among Matador bands. Take that as you will.

** WARNING: DO NOT BUY ANY ALFRED BRENDEL-- pronounced Bren-dull-- RECORDS, in any repertoire**

(better safe than sorry.)

As Patrick said, it's all about performance & there's a huge range of styles, options, even w/the most highly notated music & candyass, middle-of-the-road versions of the music are just as annoying, soporific as in the rock.

Anyone who says something like, "oh, he lets the music speak for itself" outght not be listened to about ANYTHING.

there's much superb Chopin to dig, from Nocturnes to Ballades to Mazurkass, etc... there are, also thousands of lousy Chopin performances. ANY Artur Rubinstein is a safe bet, however. Gyorgy Cziffra also.

continuing:

Scriabin: amazing & weird, dark, occult-- Haukon Austbo on Brilliant is an excellent & inexpensive way to go.

Debussy --> preludes; I should have put this right after Satie but fucked up; find the Paul Jacobs two-fer on Warners or on vinyl, Nonesuch. Michelangeli is another favorite, esp. his live recordings.

Ravel --> much misunderstood & often played daintily; I disagree. the WILDER, generally, the better. Ravel is tough to crack, however; my faves are generally too obscure for you start w/but Abbey Simon has two-cd set on Vox that's a pretty good intro.

Shostakovich --> I'm not a cultist but his Preludes & Fugues cycle is superb. Naxos will hook you up, Konstantin Scherbakov, piano.

There's lots more but this a start. If you wanna go more modern & post-Satie... drop a line.

Crap, I forgot -->

Faure, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Sorabji, Bartok, Ligeti, Kurtag, Cage, Nancarrow, Haydn, Hindemith (get Glenn Gould for these), Schoenberg, Schumann, C.P.E. Bach, ** ALKAN **, Godowsky--

Mozart-- anything w/Andreas Staier on the keyboard; I'm an aggressive period performance nut tho' & what I wrote re: Chopin applies to W.A. Mozart quadruple. Lots of stuff that's "pretty" & no better-- both you & Mozart deserve much more.

next time, promise.

SPS

[Patrick]

Wow SPS,

Great commentary on piano music. Mompou rules, doesn't he. I have a CD somewhere that I can't locate. I think perhaps Mompou himself is the performer on it.

Recently I've been getting into '50s and '60s recordings of French piano music by French pianists of the era - people like Jacques Février playing Débussy, Jean-Charles Richard playing Franck, and Yvonne Lefébure (http://www.coupdarchet.com/releases.asp) playing Ravel. Mostly mono recordings (though high-quality mono recordings). Pretty amazing stuff.

Chopin: do you know Alfred Cortot? Mostly lousy 1920s (!) and 1930s sound, fallible technically (which I like), interpretations of great depth.

Schubert: what do you think of Kempff in the Sonatas? My mom just got the complete box on CD. I heard it once over there and it sounded fantastic (both performance and recording). Forget the label but perhaps DG.

Never heard of Andreas Staier. Is he digital era only? I presume we're talking fortepiano?

Patrick

[Kameek N Deesha]

Showoffs!

Just kidding -- this is the most informative thread ever to appear on this board.

[tinobeat]

no joke...

this is great. way more than I'd hoped for. thanks folks.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

Originally posted by Kameek N Deesha
And this is helpful, though you still have to wade through lots of seeming repetition:

http://www.allclassical.com/Excellent! I've already found a bit of info on an obscure contemporary composer I like (Joseph Vella, of Malta).

[SirPatrickSpens]

Patrick--

I'll try & craft a more careful reply soon but by all means enjoy Kempff for now. I'd say he's pretty undercharacterized... sorta pre-Brendel in fact.

It might first seem odd but if you think about it, and agree the DARK Schubert (sonatas, symphony 8 & 9; string 5-tet, last few string 4-tets, etc.) is where it's at... the Russians excel.

Since yr hip to Mravisnky, imagine that level of interpretive ardor applied to the beauty & (I say) terror of Schubert.

One problem is, where the hell are you gonna find Melodiya vinyl? Schubert is, I think, one of the major composers who has been better served in the digital era than before.

Exceptions:

Artur Schabel; ** VLADIMIR SOFRONITSKY ** (get any record or cd you can find w/anythint by him; he can make even Mravinsky sound wan); a lot of Sviatoslav Richter (this you might be able to find on vinyl); if I'd bumped into yr mom at the store, I would have tried to point her to the Christian Zacharias box on EMI. He's about as moderate as I like my Schubert to me but he can heat things up too. Lastly, for now, try & find Valery Affanasiev's Schubert D. 960 on ECM. It is s-l-o-w & black like an abyss. It's also an incredible, riveting thing...

The French pianio school(s) are pretty interesting, oui. Cortot's is great; a bit messy but for Chopin, Schumann esp., he's one of the best. Check out Samson Francois if you have't already; big cheap box of Chopin is never ever boring, even tho' you might scratch yr head some at some of his intrepretative choices but... There are no boring Francois reords, so buy w/confidence.

More "soon"--

SPS

[Patrick]

The "dark" Schubert! The works that I like most are the Lieder, especially the cycles. Btw, recently saw Mitsuko Uchida perform "Die Schöne Müllerin" at the new room in Carnegie at it was intense. Young British vocalist. I'm assuming that you include these works in the dark period? They're certainly not light, at least in intention.

Even though I have a large classical CD collection, I pretty much only buy and listen to vinyl these days. Melodiya releases aren't that hard to find on LP in my experience (I've gotten plenty at Academy on 18th Street), so I'll keep my eyes peeled. I've heard of Sofronitsky, also Samson François (and have a source for his stuff on original pressings).

Schnabel - I think I have a CD set of him doing the Impromptus.

One of my favorite Schubert works is the trio that was used in "Barry Lyndon". I think it's #1 in B-flat major. I have the Stern/Rose/Istomin.

Patrick

[TheSadDebaser]

Oh, man, I fucking love Satie. Such a brilliant man. I have a CD called "The Best of Erik Satie". Lovely.

There's a very nice Sony series that has a lot of the major composers.

That MC Escher thing is pretty awsesome. I got my band's name because of him.

[Kameek N Deesha]

Well, that's because *Momus* is pretty awesome...

[marcegoodman]

I can also recommend the Ciccolini Satie recordings, although given the descriptions of the de Leeuw recordings I might prefer those myself. It better fits Satie's notion of "furniture music"- an idea that Eno, of course, took very much to heart.

We used each of the 3 Gymnopedies and the 2nd of the 3 Valses (a single piece each night with the CD player set on repeat) to help our boys fall asleep for a stretch a while back. It worked very well. We estimated those pieces had been played about 30,000 times all told during those few months.

Some Bach recommendations:

Rachel Podger's Complete Sontatas & Partitas For Violin Solo-performed on Baroque Violin on Channel Classics. This a 2-fer at single CD price.

Janos Starker's Suites for Solo Cello Complete. This was a Mercury Living Presence recording (from the series that Patrick mentions). There are many worthy versions of these. This just happens to be the one the one I ended up with.

Versions, as noted, are very important to many classical listeners. I knew a guy who had 150 (and counting!) different versions of Brahm's First Symphony. To the extent that I personally have had preferences they have been very slight. I'm either not listening for or just don't hear these differences in the same way others do. I have often relied upon the informed opinions of the Penguin Guide and Gramophone magazine to sort out versions.

By the way, www.gramophone.co.uk maintains a database of reviews from its pages that I believe goes back to the dawn of the CD era but also includes vinyl recordings.

My way into classical music (about ten years back now) was through the Americans-Copland, Ives and Gershwin. Actually, it was Bill Frisell's version of Copland's "Billy the Kid" which triggered this. I'm sure I heard the piece as a child and had forgotten all about it. Interestingly, I read somewhere that Sonny Sharrock was contemplating recording a version of Copland's "Rodeo" before he died.

Marc