Sun Ra - help, and other suggestions

[Maximo]

So i'm about to indulge in my first two - three Sun Ra albums and I dont know where to start. I've been told that if I start in the wrong place i'll ruin it forever and the music will sound like a wall of noise. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Also, what's some good jazz aside from Coltrane, Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Benny Goodman?

[TheSadDebaser]

Fucking A, dude.

I only have two Sun Ra albums, El is a Sound of Joy and Outer Spaceways Incorporated. If you already dig free jazz it probably doesn't matter where you go from here, but I really like those two CDs (both feature "Saturn" which is a really good piece). El is a Sound of Joy is a pretty straight bop record with strange meanderings, Outer Spaceways Incorporated is more like a crazy free jazz improv with some boppy moments. But I'm not really well enough versed in this stuff to comment much.

As for more free jazz: Albert Ayler and Pharoah Sanders are people I've really dug. I have Pharoah's First and Thembi, and I kind of prefer the latter. I have to Albert Ayler records, Witches and Devils which is cool, but doesn't seem to have any well known pieces of his on it, but it's a nice record. The other is At Slug's Saloon Vol. 2 which has two of his great works on it.

Also, check out Charles Mingus and the Mingus Big Band. Great stuff.

You should check out Downtown Music Gallery (http://dtmgallery.com). Great store, great selection, and great staff (or at least that one guy that's almost always there seems really nice).

When I went to the last FMU record fair, ESP Records had a table and they were selling CD-Rs of their own stuff. I thought they were bootlegs until I checked the ESP-Disk website. Slug's Saloon had a finger print on it. Uh. Unfortunately the Sunny Murray and Pharoah Sanders CDs I purchased now skip in my stereo. I think I need to rip the MP3s and make a new disc with a better CD-R.

[earl grey]

good thread - i have been meaning to ask for a sun ra starting point for a while. i think 'space is the place' is the big one.

maximo - other than those four, i'd recommend mingus (definitely), ornette coleman, sonny rollins ... i'm not a jazz expert, but those are some of my other faves.

[TheSadDebaser]

Yeah, I wanna get Space Is the Place, too. I actually like to pick up any 70s stuff I see on Impulse! Records. They were really solid. Next on my list is Archie Shepp and more Sonny Sharrock. I have Dance With Me Montana and Guitar, but they're not as awesome as his stuff for Space Ghost: Coast 2 Coast. I wanna get Ask the Ages, but haven't found a copy yet.

[bitterfruit]

The AMG bio on Sun Ra is an interesting read.

[Maximo]

Originally posted by bitterfruit
The AMG bio on Sun Ra is an interesting read.

Before I even get into that, is it Sun Ra who bought a house in Philly and lived with the 20 or so members of his band? It became a cult sort of, and he really believed he was from space?

[TheSadDebaser]

He told everyone he was from Saturn, but he didn't start that until about a quarter into his career.

Sun Ra's Arkestra played at my school a few years ago! Quite some time before I ever heard of him (thanks to this message board about over two years ago).

[vesper]

i have sun ra's music from tomorrow's world which, while cool, isn't the best sound quality. the material is pulled from two concerts in 1960 at chicago's wonder inn and the "majestic hall session." i wish i had a better jazz vocabulary, but all i can tell you is that it's really loose, slinky bop. but again the hiss can really mess it up for you. i need more of this stuff.

also check out albert ayler (seriously), ornette coleman and peter brotzmann. i have to get stuff by anthony braxton and pharoah sanders, but i understand that it's excellent.

the decemeber 2004 issue of the Wire has a cool invisible jukebox feature with altoist marshall allen of arkestra fame. very good read.

[TheSadDebaser]

The January (? not sure, has Elliott Smith on the cover) has a huge, like, six page (of content) article on Ayler. Great, great read. Works as a mini-biography, and includes a few great anecdotes. I think there's also a great article on him in the issue of the Wire with Wolf Eyes on the cover, but I'd have to check.

[tinobeat]

I really like the 2CD singles compilation. almost 50 short little songs spanning a few decades. Some weirdo jazz stuff, some straight blues stuff, some near-doo-wop...

Not expansive as the free jazz stuff, but fascinating...

[vesper]

Originally posted by TheSadDebaser
The January (? not sure, has Elliott Smith on the cover) has a huge, like, six page (of content) article on Ayler.

Magnet maybe? i think he was on their cover recently.

[mydogcheckers]

Sun Ra-You really cannot go wrong with the evidence reissues-My personal favorites ate Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy/Art Forms of Demensions Tommorow and The Magic City. The Helocentric World Series on ESP is also good. Of his later albums Nuclear War has some great moments to it (especially the title track).

If you are exploring his work do not expect spacy/wierdness throughout the entire album-He was heavily influenced by Duke Ellington and (especially in the later works) it shows. This is not a critical judgement-just that whenever Sun Ra comes up in forms like this people seem to emphasize his more "trippier" output.

Just to add on to what others have mentioned try:

Late sixties spaciness
Ornette Coleman-Science Fiction
Pharoah Sanders-Karma

Early Sixties-similar to Miles Davis (59-63)
Gil Evans Orchestra-Out of the Cool

For recent stuff try John Zorns Masada/Naked City (if you can find the titles cheaper than Japanese Import prices)

[Patrick]

I speak from admitted ignorance of free jazz and most of what happened after 1967, TSD, but I'd recommend the early '60s Impulses too. Especially Coltrane, Mingus, Nelson, Ayler. If it's mono and doesn't have an ABC logo on it, it will sound amazing. Even the ABC pressings sound pretty great.

For some reason, this is one section of the jazz market that didn't go through the roof. Either the kids found it not hip enuff, or the boomers found it not RVG enuff. Whatever, grab 'em when you see 'em. They were so well produced - cover and vinyl - that even the whipped-looking ones play full and loud.

Patrick

[TheSadDebaser]

Originally posted by vesper
Magnet maybe? i think he was on their cover recently.

Oh yeah, I meant Magnet, but I don't know which month.


Oh, I didn't even know Mingus was on Impulse. Makes sense though. I don't know who Nelson is. I guess Impulse was always free jazz/"the new thing"? The earliest thing I have is "A Love Supreme" (such an amazing record). I really need to get some studio Ayler. I unfortunately discovered today that not only does my ESP Ayler disc skip, but it does some bizarre hissing/swelling thing, too, which is due in part certainly to the shitty CD-R and my shitty integrated stereo that only kind of works. I hear the same thing on perfectly normal CDs.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic about the second part, Patrick (I wasn't entirely sure myself why it wasn't more popular!), but when I played some of this stuff in school one time, people weren't far from actually making some personal remarks. They took aim at the music, mostly. I, of course, turned it up loud as I could. :)

And turned it off later. I spend most of my time by myself now. Reading... and listening to free jazz...

[the Pawnbroker]

Originally posted by Maximo

Also, what's some good jazz aside from Coltrane, Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Benny Goodman?

I like Monk, esp:

Thelonius Monk & John Coltrane.
Criss Cross

[pabost]

Originally posted by TheSadDebaser
Oh yeah, I meant Magnet, but I don't know which month.

It's the November (?) issue with Tom Waits on the cover.

[Patrick]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Nelson is Oliver Nelson, who recorded the amazing 'The Blues & The Abstract Truth!' for Impulse with a great lineup of players.

Patrick

[Dave]

If you're looking for an "in" to the world of Sun Ra the suggestion of Space Is The Place is seconded here. However the Soundtrack to the film is the one you want, not the Impulse album of the same name. Not that the Impulse album isn't great, it's just that the Soundtrack to the film offers a broader range of what Sun Ra and the Arkestra were about. From there the possiblilities are a bit endless, but the Evidence reissues (the S.I.T.P. soundtrack is on Evidence) are all top notch and cover a lot of ground thematically and chronologically.
All of this is quite funny because when I was 18 there was almost no information available. Sun Ra was a name that we read in the songwriting credits on the MC5's Kick Out The Jams. With a few exceptions you couldn't go to a record store and even find someone who knew who Sun Ra was, let alone find one of his records.
The film Space Is The Place (Plexifilm DVD) is also manditory viewing.

Dave

PS Yes, Sun Ra is the guy who lived in a house in Philly for years w/his band members, and while I don't think it could be considered a cult (they didn't recruit people or make them stay etc.) the whole thing is quite amazing. There were two documentary films that were out on video in the early 90's that were both very good. One of them had a lot of footage from the Philly house and even has some classic scenes w/some of his neighbors. I don't know if they've made their way to DVD yet though.

PPS I just listened to Oliver Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth at home last week. A fantastic record.

[TheSadDebaser]

Originally posted by pabost
It's the November (?) issue with Tom Waits on the cover.

The man is correct.

I just woke up from a nap to a song that seemed vaguely familiar, and I realized it was none other than Sun Ra. The version of "Rocket Number Nine Take Off For the Planet Venus" from the singles collection. Now I want it.

[Salman]

Space is the Place is my favourite.
Atlantis is also an incredible album.

Other jazz worth checking out: Pharoah Sanders and Cecil Taylor.
Also check out Supersilent. They're a cool post-rock/free jazz band from Norway.

[earl grey]

Originally posted by Salman

Also check out Supersilent. They're a cool post-rock/free jazz band from Norway.

have you heard jaga jazzist? also norwegian. i got an album by them in the fall - 'a livingroom hush' - that's quite good. closer to big band than free, but i think they've toured with supersilent.

[Thor]

I own 'Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy' on vinyl by Sun Ra, and it is off the fucking planet weird, and good. From 1962, I believe.

I saw Pharoah Sanders live a few months ago on a complete whim, I barely knew him, and what a fucking gig it was.

[Thor]

Probably already mentioned, too, but the recent vinyl reissues of Sun Ra's catalogue sound awesome. My local record store has like 40 of them.

[nefarious]

There is a cool double-cd cover album called Wavelength-Infinity where a bunch of cool bands do alternate takes on Sun Ra stuff. It might introduce you to some new contemporary jazz things maximo. I really enjoy the disks! It has bands like Elliot Sharp, Sonic youth, and Eugene Chadbourne playing an electric rake!

Best,

Russell

[mac m]

it's really hard to go terribly wrong, from any period of the arkestra, unless you're seriously not up for some out-there skronking & honking, in which case you could end up with an album of that, and might find that you like that, too!

anyway,

Jazz In Silhouette is just great jazz, fairly straight up, which in the Ra world is still eccentric and extra beautiful.

Languidity i think was kind of seen as a disco sidetrack by some, but if that's disco then get me to Studio 54 pronto -- it's really amazing soulful electric-acoustic music and not disco (not that there's anything wrong with that).

We Travel the Spaceways/Bad and the Beautiful -- one of the great evidence twofers, including the mellow and gorgeous "Tapestry from an Asteroid"... lo-fi jazz and percussion freakouts in abundance... the Cosmic Tones/Art Forms twofer is also great and really different...

anyway as i try to come up with a place to start it becomes clear that the massive output has many entry points, all of them enjoyable...have fun!

ps also check out the John Gilmore "blowing in from chicago" album

[dola]

ake sure you download (or buy) "Nuclear War" by Sun Ra. The Yo La Tengo version...had great album art.

Maybe it's on Space Is The Place and I'm an idiot. Maybe Ace Is the Place for me!

Speaking of Madden, FUCK the Patriots and Belicheck, who according to Curtis Martin is the "Bobby Fischer of football.” Oh, Curtis.

[Dave]

Was on the album of the same name. Atavistic has reissued it on CD. Atavistic has also put out a great early, never before released Sun Ra set on CD, and another really good early, Chicago period CD as well as a fascinating old film called Cry Of Jazz that features old footage of Sun Ra.

The Atavistic Unheard Music series has some real heavy hitters as well, but they are certainly not a starting point for folks new to Free Jazz.

http://www.atavistic.com

Dave

[TheSadDebaser]

I have a great CD by Spaceways, Inc. on Atavistic: Thirteen Cosmic Standards. Covering Sun Ra and Parliament Psychedelic.