Recommendations on Some Good/Inexpensive Stereo Equipment?

[mashuguna]

Can anyone offer some good recommendations re: some relatively inexpensive stereo equipment. My 8-yr old receiver and CD player are on their way out....

I'm indifferent as to stand-alon components or integrated systems.

Sorry, Matador-folk, your tastes in equipment, while entirely impressive, lie well outside of my financial means....

[Patrick]

Sorry mashuguna - didn't mean to overwhelm you with that - there are plenty of great deals on secondhand equipment out there, and this is the way I recommend you go since the amplification being made for the mass market today is SHIT. And I mean total shit.

You can get incredible deals on eBay. Look for receivers made by Marantz, Onkyo, Sherwood or Sansui from the '70s or up to about '81 or so (that's when everything turned plastic). These massive, well-built units last forever... of course buy one that's in working order from someone with a good feedback rating. You should be able to find something in the $100-150 range, especially the gorgeous Marantz 2200 series (2230, 2230B, 2265, 2265B etc.).

What speakers do you have?

As for CD players, spending money does make a difference unfortunately... single-disc players are more stable (less jitter-prone) than changers and tend to be better-made... and computer advances mean that DAC (digital-to-audio conversion) technology gets better with time. Here you want something as recent as possible. Good brand names are Rotel and Marantz. Again, you might try Ebay. Also try Audiogon to see if any of their new dealers are discounting recent models (www.audiogon.com).

All-in-one boxes suck, period.

You should be able to build a lovely sounding system for $300 bucks with care, possibly less. Or you could get a new amp now and a new CD player in 6 months, saving in between. You may well find that the main problem is really with the amp or the CD player, not both, and that when you replace one you already have a huge improvement. I suspect your amp.

A hidden bonus if you get an old '70s or early '80s amp: it will come with a high-quality built-in phono section (modern receivers come with none, or if there is one it's an afterthought that is not good quality), so if you ever decide to get into vinyl that would be an easy option for you.

Best of luck, and feel free to ask more questions. I have a host of information on this topic.

Patrick

[jt. r]

i have a decent receiver/disc player and am currently looking for floor standing speakers and a turntable (direct drive). any suggestions?
please explain the significance of an amplifier as it relates to sound quality. if you could, make some suggestions about this equipment that i might find on ebay. thanks!

[Patrick]

Look for speakers by PSB or Paradigm... both make excellent speakers at under $200 per pair. Probably bookshelves though. Floorstanding speakers cost considerably more for decent ones.

Significance of amplifier design: every time you amplify a signal you distort it - hence you need designs with the lowest possible distortion - the theoretical best being "straight wire with gain". Since this is impossible, it all has to do with circuit design, parts quality and personal preference (tubes or solid state).

You might want to ask on http://www.audioasylum for more info.

Patrick

[mac]

I have a Marantz receiver from---oh---1988 (?) and it still works like a frigging charm. natch!, it was a low end model at that. by-the-by, I have a set of JBL speakers that how proven unbelievably reliable and sturdy. with great sound to this damn day. (and I am hardly an audiophile and not very technically inclined).


so, Patrick: what are some recommendations on the turntable front? is the used market the same for record players (as outlined above)? I am currently eyeballing a used, early 90's, Technics at my local record emporium, though i don't know the model off-hand.


any thoughts or suggestions?




man, I was glancing through a old copy of TFTH i found in a box of zines the other day. the Fairport discography & story. good schtuff. good schtuff. days of yore..


thanks!


mac

[Patrick]

Hey Mac,

Yeah TFTH... some embarrassing moments too back then. I'm glad you enjoyed it though.

Cheap turntables: no, stay away from cheap Technics - if you must have direct drive you need a massive setup which will isolate the motor vibrations from the platter - like the classic Technics 1200 (which are nonetheless saddled with crappy arms that withstand back-cueing better than they transmit music), or better, the huge Denon and Luxman models from Japan in the early '80s with big mahogany or walnut bases.

MUCH cheaper (and more reliable): find yourself a nice Thorens belt drive. These turntables had a simple and elegant design, and still pop up on Ebay for $125-175 or so in good condition, and the arms that came with these tables were well-designed pieces of engineering. The belts are still available too. You'll be ideally looking for a TD-160 or a TD-145. The only difference is that the arm pops up automatically at the end of the side with the TD-145; the TD-160 is totally manual.

Best of luck!

Patrick

[mac]

i'm beginning to see the light ..


thanks Patrick! so, what are the advantages of belt drive over direct drive? I appreciate the good information and recommendations.



nah, ..TFTH was a great. I've referenced that thing a dozen times over the years, when scouring for old Fairport albums, etc. nostalgia? maybe. but I was lead out of the cave by the likes TFTH, Conflict, and Forced Exposure, back in the day.


thanks again.

best-
mac

[Noah]

Wished I would've waited to hear this good discussion on turntables. I had this dinky little record player w/ built in speakers and I was getting fed up with it, so I bought this old KLH (the turntable says Model 24) system that came with speakers as well. I paid $250. If your familiar with this system, did I get ripped off Patrick? It doesn't sound that great to me. Lots of crackling and surface noise in general, even on new records. Overall the sound is muddy, not that defined. Is this just the nature of record players, do I need a new needle or what? Sorry if these are stupid questions but I don't much about audio equipment.

Any help appreciated.
Noah

[jt. r]

aren't belt drives ultimately troublesome?
thanks patrick for keeping me from technics, since those were what i was in the market for initially. are belt drives easy to install once they've worn out?

[Patrick]

Mac and J.T.:

Belt drives are easier to care for since the motor is completely isolated from the platter and thus can be weaker, relying on the motor to give initial momentum at most and then letting the platter's own momentum continue to spin the record.

Direct drives need to be massive, expensive units in order to achieve the same isolation between motor and platter.

Belts are easy to replace, and almost any model is available from here:

http://www.elexatelier.com/

A good belt should last for at least 5 years of intensive play.

Noah: All-in-one systems are generally less good than separates, for a variety reasons, the main ones being (a) they were designed for the bottom of the market from the mid-'60s onward, and (b) putting all that different stuff in one box tends to lead to compromises and cost-cutting... amplifiers benefit from separate power supplies from turntables, and speakers benefit from being away from anything that vibrates or transmits a radio signal, etc.

The needle is almost certainly shot and this is probably (probably) what's causing the crackling and the noise. I'm listening to a record right now on my machine and it's completely crackle free (a mint record helps!) and clean - and this can be achieved on a good budget set-up as well. But cartridges dry out and lose their suspension, and the diamond (or sapphire) tips of needles get worn down over the years... combine that with a less-than-mint record and you'll get that distinctive crackle and distortion.

All that said, I remember KLH all-in-one systems that had a wonderfully warm, period sound to them. Does it have a radio in it that you can check? Perhaps you'll like the sound. However for spinning records, I recommend selling the unit on Ebay for the best you can get... even if you can find a replacement needle or cartridge (which is unlikely on those console units), you're not gonna get the kind of sound you should be able to hear for $250.

Patrick

[Patrick]

You can't hear these in stores in the US because they're only available mail order from Canada... on the other hand, that's why the prices are so low (though not quite so low for Canadians). Bookshelves starting at $185, towers starting at $490, and they get _rave_ reviews:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/products.html

and they offer free shipping plus a 30-day trial period, so you'll only be out on return shipping. It's always best to test out audio equipment in your home if possible anyway - no dealer's showroom sounds like your living room or bedroom, and their matching equipment will be different from yours as well.

Disclaimer: I have never heard an Axiom speaker. I've only heard that they are superb value for money -- actually superb speakers period.

Patrick

[Longsleeve]

Thanks for the info -- I've been looking for a place to start in getting into good audio and a decent turntable. Much thanks.

[jt. r]

if i wanted to learn the ins and outs of turntables (which i do, in fact), is there a decent book that would tell me about all the parts and accoutrement. i'm sure that a so so user's guide would be helpful, but i'm looking for something more.
that axiomaudio site is very appealing.
thanks again.

[Patrick]

There is absolutely no book that will teach you what every halfway decent audio and TV repair shop used to know, unfortunately. It's all folk knowledge and the Internet. Fortunately the latter's resources are formidable, so formidable that it can take a detailed roadmap to navigate them.

I think the best introductory article on turntable and cartridge/arm setup is the following piece by Laura Dearborn:

http://www.vandenhul.nl/artpap/turntabl.htm

Although detailed it's relatively easy to follow and addresses basics like support -- what your turntable sits on (shelf, floor, table) will have a huge impact on how it sounds.

If you have questions after that, go to the FAQ and vinyl sections of this site:

http://www.audioasylum.com

Searches for commonly asked questions before you post will spare you indignant remarks from regulars. In general it's a friendly site, but use the resources before you post.

Patrick

[jt. r]

that article is nothing less than intense. i fully anticipated the suggestion of testing the environment for existing dissonance and sonic disturbances with primitive/elaborate dB detection equipment.
of course, i've not been able to find a guaranteed thorens 145/160 for under 200 bucks on ebay lately, since they tend to jump right before the sale closes. nevertheless, i persevere.
more importantly, saving that money would be helpful; however, it's not often that one finds _blast furnaces_ by bernd and hilla becher for less than 50 bucks brand new on amazon.com
but that's another matter entirely.

[Patrick]

Don't restrict yourself to just Thorens jt - there are bargains by AR, Rega and Luxman too. Do searches on the Vinyl Asylum. Good luck.

Patrick

[jt. r]

since i couldn't find a cheap enough thorens, ar, rega, et. al on ebay, i went and bought a gently used Technics SL1200MK2 offa craigslist.

in all fairness, i managed to find a pair of paradigm 3se's (also offa craigslist) for 75 smackers. thanks for the recommendation patrick.

could someone explain the importance of the counterweight on the tonearm to me? is their a modular weight i should set it to? also, what should i check on these speakers (since i'm going to buy them next sunday) to be sure they're decent?

this thread has been easily as useful as the listening post. thanks everyone.

[Patrick]

jt.r,

The time-honored method of setting the counterweight is as follows:

1. Attach the cartridge and remove any stylus guard (carefully). Make sure the antiskate control is set to zero.

2. Turn the counterweight until the arm floats as perfectly horizontally as you can get it

3. Adjust the dial on the counterweight so that it reads "0" (without actually turning the weight - so that the arm is still floating)

4. Now turn the weight to the recommended tracking force for the cartridge (usually somewhere between 1 and 2 grams).

HOWEVER markings on counterweights are notoriously inaccurate, especially as the turntable ages. What you should really do is get yourself a stylus tracking force gage. Shure makes one that is about $20 from needledoctor.com or other reputable analog sources. This allows you to set the tracking force to precisely the right amount for your cartridge arm.

Basically, you balance the needle on a little scale, and turn the counterweight until the scale reads the actual tracking force you want - 1.5g or whatever.

AND - after you set the tracking force, don't forget to adjust the antiskate to match.

Patrick

[jt. r]

i have my preamp plugged in, but i don't have a phono or auxilliary input on my receiver. what should i plug my preamp into on my receiver?

[Patrick]

jt.r,

When you say preamp do you mean a phono stage (also called a phono preamp)? Your receiver by definition already has a preamp built into it - that's the part that has a selector switch and a volume control.

What is the brand/model name of your preamp and receiver?

Patrick

[bmmello]

My receiver (modern) has Phono entry but no earth connection. :(

[jt. r]

Originally posted by Patrick
jt.r,

What is the brand/model name of your preamp and receiver?

Patrick

i got a simple nad pp1 preamp. my receiver is a low end jvc. i reduced buzzing by loosening a screw on the preamp and grounding it there by tightening it around the ground wire.

that's o.k. now i have to adjust the counterweight. those directions are somewhere in this thread i think.

thanks again patrick. your sage advice is moving me right along.

[Patrick]

The NAD is cool.... it seems odd that you don't have an AUX jack on your receiver, but you should be able to plug the NAD into any line-level input (CD, DVD, tape, tuner whatever) and be fine.

bmmello: just like jt.r you should be able to ground to a screw on the receiver or preamp.

Patrick

[bmmello]

Originally posted by Patrick

bmmello: just like jt.r you should be able to ground to a screw on the receiver or preamp.

Patrick

Thanks, this has worked perfectly. The buzzing was not only reduced, it is gone.

[maroonwalrus]

Patrick -

Do you know anything about the quality of Garrard direct-drive turntables? I have one of the 1978 DD models on hold at a local record store, and wanted to see if you (or anybody else) knew anything about how good they are.

The asking price is $100 - it's in very good, working condition with a Stanton MkII cartridge. The only information I could really find about it was here: http://www.garrard501.com/history.html (scroll down to 1978). It's made in England.

They had sold a Thorens TD-145 in decent condition for the same price the day before I got there -- too bad I missed that. I currently have a plastic Sansui turntable that I bought for $30 a while back, and the needle broke - a cartridge replacement is about $25, so I figured I'd be better off buying a nice table to start upgrading my lackluster hi-fi setup.

Any help you could give would be appreciated.

[Patrick]

Hi moonwalrus,

The Garrrard 301 and 401 turntables are absolute classics and are still much valued by people in the know. There is a whole cottage industry of folks who make new plinths for them (they require a heavy base to sound good and often were not shipped with one originally), reconstructive surgery and other mods. I would really like one myself.

However I'm not familiar with the DD turntables. The 301 and 401 were idler-wheel drives, and this is what the company was really known for.

I'd try asking the question on Audio Asylum's vinyl board:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html

Knowledgeable types will leap in to advise you.

Patrick

[otto midnight]

i was browsing this morning for a possible replacement for the venerable b&o that's having some grounding/output issues and was getting a little bummed at how much i thought i was going to have to spend. glad to see that i might be able to afford something afterall.