hip-hop: a guilty pleasure?

[bitterfruit]

Strangely enough, this stems from a conversation with some suburbanites while listening to Lil Jon.

Are negative aspects of hip-hop counter productive for African-Americans as a whole?

I don't think anyone can deny the validity of the art form itself, but do negative elements, when glorified in popular media, undermine their cause? Am I contributing to it?

[Elijah]

Originally posted by bitterfruit
Are negative aspects of hip-hop counter productive for African-Americans as a whole?No. Things that pathetic angry white people percieve as negative aspects of hip-hop are detrimental to their already misinformed outlook with regard to minority issues. Claiming that this is a problem hip-hop artists should be concerned with is similar to claiming that women who dress suggestively are asking to be raped.
Am I contributing to it?No, I don't think you are.

[S M @]

Even if the guilt argument could be made for some section of rap music produced (obviously nowhere near all of it could be percieved that way), do you really listen to that section much? I mean the section that plays up the violent materialistic stuff in a cartoonish way to sell records, as opposed to genuine expression. The first one doesn't deserve support since it's crap, the second one you can't really condemn, you'd kind of be killing the messenger. My .02.

[Paul]

Originally posted by Elijah
No. Things that pathetic angry white people percieve as negative aspects of hip-hop are detrimental to their already misinformed outlook with regard to minority issues. Claiming that this is a problem hip-hop artists should be concerned with is similar to claiming that women who dress suggestively are asking to be raped. That's a pretty stupid thing to say, Elijah.

NOTE: I'M NOT SPEAKING ABOUT ALL RAP AND HIP-HOP. JUST THE STUFF THAT SEEMS MOST POPULAR. It's the musical equivalent of watching COPS, where the lowest-income and most undereducated of our society are put on display and their ignorance showcased for our entertainment. The way mass media is set up right now, it's perfectly okay to exploit the idiocy of some whites because there are thousands of other outlets for us to redeem ourselves. Sadly, even in 2005, sports and music are still the largest peepholes into black culture and when the kingmakers focus on the undesirable element and build them up to be the most recognizable figures in pop culture for an entire race, it's fucking embarrassing. You know and I know that the majority of black people in America lead normal lives, love their children, work their jobs, and contribute to society the same as everyone else. Hip-hop that appeals to the lowest common denominator demeans every bit of progress that's been made in the last 40 years. Hip-hop itself is a musical ghetto, even. Aside from Lenny Kravitz and Seal, I can't think of many black artists recently who've sold multitudes of records that didn't operate within the confines of rap, hip-hop or r&b. Don't tell me there's not black folksingers out there. Black rockstars. Black composers. These people can't get a break, though.

[Elijah]

Originally posted by Paul
That's a pretty stupid thing to say, Elijah.Touché.

[Patrick]

Seriously, how can anyone not enjoy Lil' Jon?

Patrick

[9000]

Originally posted by Patrick
Seriously, how can anyone not enjoy Lil' Jon?

Patrick

what?!?!?!?what?!?!?!YEAH!!!!

[tinobeat]

OKAY!!!

[vesper]

paul, i think yr take on hip-hop (or the larger media power, i guess) shortchanges the listener a bit. if "you know and i know" that the ying yang twins aren't really reppin' the african-american community, then why doesn't the rest of the public? well, fact is that they probably do, that most people really can think critically about what's banging from the car stereo, that most importantly they can think about their complicity in banging it from the car stereo, and that in the end you and/or yr "community" aren't necessarily connected with everything yr peers do. sadly, neither black society nor white society has developed an effective dialogue to disperse with our tendency to go from hip-hop as pop form -> hip-hop as representative of black culture entirely. and overall i think everyone needs to step back and say pop- cos that's what we're really talking about, isn't it?- isn't reality, that that is the fun, that really it is okay to be "wrong" so long as you can recognize the difference between yourself and yr listening habits.

[Paul]

One thing you have to remember, though, is that we are a certain type of music fan. Critical, obsessively collecting and listening to things to discuss them. The other kind is the type who buys what plays on the radio, MTV or BET, or whatever their friends are listening to. We probably buy as many cds in a month as they buy all year.

I'm not saying we're better than the other type of music buyer. Just that we prioritize differently. The byproduct of their casual affair with the music and imagery, though, is that they're liable to take for granted that most of America's black culture revolves around machismo, getting high, and flaunting sudden wealth because that's all they allow themselves to be exposed to.

Are they too dumb to realize that the hip-hop culture isn't representative of the race as a whole? Yeah, some of them are. Just like some of us are.

I guess my logic here is twisting and turning while I'm writing this, but it's not about the fans. It's about the individual listeners and their willful ignorance... no matter what type of fans they might be.

I still say rap/hip-hop is its own musical ghetto, though. It forces out the worst stereotypes and makes them the most highly regarded denizens and ensures instant popularity and riches. Chart success eludes the artists who may be better educated, have a positive message and live respectable lives offstage as well as onstage. Why? Because if you're not "street," it's regarded as a weakness. And that pisses me off to no end.

[9000]

Originally posted by vesper
if "you know and i know" that the ying yang twins aren't really reppin' the african-american community, then why doesn't the rest of the public?

i'm not terribly well-versed in the ying yang twins, but that whisper song is off the fuckin' chain. best pop single i've heard in a while. shit, they can represent my peoples with tunes like that!

[TheSadDebaser]

I just woke up about an hour ago and my head isn't working enough to totally understand everything that's been said yet, but I just want to say that any "negative aspects of hip-hop" are not representative of the genre, just the image mainstream media pushes on the public, which I guess is what Paul is trying to say.

However, I don't agree it's like watching cops. I think it's much much worse, and considerably racist.

I think it's subtle racist propaganda. It's a great way for the powers that be to maintain segregation, misogyny, and hatred. And you can see that Corporate America doesn't even maintain a strict block on independent organizations coming through to represent hip hop in the public mainstream domain, provided they keep the kind of image they want proliferated.

As to whether "doesn't the average listener know better?" no, I don't think rich, ignorant suburbanites know much of anything in regards to urban integrated life and are perfectly happy to accept the image of "uneducated black criminal," which you will see much more on TV than someone like Dalek.

Even if you can't agree with me, you have to agree that there must be a reason we don't see more of a variety in mainstream hip hop.

[tinobeat]

Originally posted by Paul
We probably buy as many cds in a month as they buy all year.

oh Paul, we all know you don't *buy* CDs!

I keed, of course, but yeah, I'm with you 100% on your theses.

[Paul]

Originally posted by tinobeat
oh Paul, we all know you don't *buy* CDs!

I keed, of course, but yeah, I'm with you 100% on your theses. Seriously, I'd like to know where this assumption got its legs! I do still buy cds, people! Honest!

[tinobeat]

well, you have everything before its actual release, so I assume you're not going and buying these CDs after they've been actually made available to the unwashed masses.

I apologize, though, if I took you to be more, erm, "perpetuan" than you actually are...

[vesper]

i really have no way to argue around this particularly "indie" concept of the dumb, pop consumer. i guess maybe it comes from pop being a youth culture, aka a culture of people who don't know who they are yet and who will adopt, well, anything that seems suitable at the time (and sub/indie-culture is just as disgustingly guilty, but "i guess this is growing up," right?). and the great big hope is that kid rebels, kid fucks up, kid gets over cheap thrills, kid becomes adult, and we're all the better for it. so i personally (!) find it difficult to take hip-hop, today's pop music, to task for naive kids mimicry.

so we can agree to disagree at that brick wall, but my main point remains...

sadly, neither black society nor white society has developed an effective dialogue to disperse with our tendency to go from hip-hop as pop form -> hip-hop as representative of black culture entirely.

and, to me, that is a tendon in need of a cut. everything else can fall down around it.

[vesper]

actually let me revise: i think we should take hip-hop to task, i think we should all take every piece of art to task because that's our job as the receiver. see my feelings on the ying yang twins -- utterly despicable trash not worth the time to decide, "hey, nice beat." but first we need to create some sort of forum where we can discuss these problems before our (middle cl)asses wax moral sophistication. so i maintain that these kinds of discussion come from a much more fundamental issue of ill communication (har har).

[vesper]

for the record, my girlfriend agrees with you guys. and that probably means that i really am wrong.

[bitterfruit]

Originally posted by Paul

Are they too dumb to realize that the hip-hop culture isn't representative of the race as a whole? Yeah, some of them are. Just like some of us are.


This is really my problem. Most people are too dumb to realize that hip-hop doesn't really represent African-Americans.

I don't think that it's healthy to put hateful words and sentiments into the heads of impressionable suburban youths.

[9000]

Originally posted by vesper
sadly, neither black society nor white society has developed an effective dialogue to disperse with our tendency to go from hip-hop as pop form -> hip-hop as representative of black culture entirely.

what's the basis for saying it's "our tendency" to equate hip-hop with all of black culture entirely?

Originally posted by bitterfruit
Most people are too dumb to realize that hip-hop doesn't really represent African-Americans.


similarily, how do you support this claim?


i know plenty of people who can make the distinction.

do you guys really think that the majority of the population is walking thinking that hip-hop represents blacks? perhaps your judgements are based on your personal life experiences and interactions?

guess what? white people have had their own distorted views of blacks long before rap music existed.

[bitterfruit]

Well, it's no different than the fact that The Strokes don't represent white people.

No genre of music or the musicians legitimately represent their given race, unless the KKK forms a dirty dozen brass band.

[Elijah]

Originally posted by bitterfruit
Well, it's no different than the fact that The Strokes don't represent white people. So are people who listen to the Strokes part of the problem as well? Or, for that matter, the Dwarves, or (ahem) the Frogs?

[vesper]

Originally posted by 9000
what's the basis for saying it's "our tendency" to equate hip-hop with all of black culture entirely?

well "our" is a bit broad, but i suppose you can look toward the "rich, ignorant suburbanites" and the people who take the mainstream hip-hop image for granted. isn't this what everyone is saying? and even if i'm (we're) wrong and a majority of the white population not only thinks but accepts that, as bitterfruit says, no musical genre can represent a race, then we still have no avenue for healthy and revealing interaction. i can't come up with a way to disprove paul's earlier point that "even in 2005, sports and music are still the largest peepholes into black culture." that is what i'm railing against.

and i won't even try to deny that, yes, my opinions are shaped by where i'm from and who i've interacted with. i grew up 20 mins away from the CBN headquarters, dude. do you think pat robertson and (worse) his audience sees the boogieman of hip-hop as an art worth social, political, economic, sexual and personal criticism? does bill o'reilly (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103092,00.html)?

[S M @]

I'm not really clear on what problem is being addressed in this thread, exactly. It seems to be shifting around a bit, but if anyone's looking for this:

Originally posted by vesper
we still have no avenue for healthy and revealing interaction. that is what i'm railing against.


to come from LCD pop music (which is mostly what I think is being discussed), I think they're bound to be disappointed. I'd say all manner of cultural output from many communities is available, you'd just have to look for it. Like anything else; Like rock music, for instance.

[TheSadDebaser]

O'REILLY: What if an 11-year-old kid imitates you, Cam'ron? What if he uses four-letter words and he develops a lifestyle based upon the street, he gets tattooed, he gets all of this, do you feel badly about that?

[bitterfruit]

Originally posted by TheSadDebaser
O'REILLY: What if an 11-year-old kid imitates you, Cam'ron? What if he uses four-letter words and he develops a lifestyle based upon the street, he gets tattooed, he gets all of this, do you feel badly about that?

O'reilly is a total fucktard.

[vesper]

i like this part a lot...

DASH: If an 11-year-old were to imitate Cam'ron, what they would be doing is becoming a CEO Of their own company, controlling their own destiny, taking a bad situation and making it good. He has a record company. He's sold a lot of records. He's acted in movies. I feel like he's a positive...

CAM'RON: I have a cologne also.

DASH: He has a cologne.

CAM'RON: I have a clothing line.

[earl grey]

Originally posted by vesper

CAM'RON: I have a cologne also.

DASH: He has a cologne.

brilliant.

[Squall91]

The new Kano album is pretty wicked.

[S M @]

Originally posted by vesper
CAM'RON: I have a cologne also.

DASH: He has a cologne.

CAM'RON: I have a clothing line.

Sign me up..... gawd....

[moonshiner]

Hip hop encourages debate among white, middle class internet users.

And that's a positive thing.

[moonshiner]

PS: Wu Tang is for the children.

[Gerard]

did someone say we can't judge white people based on the Strokes?

at the risk of being more obvious than an episode of "Entourage", the hip-hop universe is awfully vast. And like any other genre, there are artists who make amazing records and those who don't. There are artists who perpetuate dopey stereotypes and/or rehash the same tired themes over and over again, and those who are either super-original and/or from outer space. If you wanna argue about the merits of an specific artist, fair enough, but holding the entire genre accountable for well, ANYTHING, seems like a no win situation.

[Elijah]

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