Matador and LP/CD vs Download Collecting Dilemma

[stewrat]

So I have nearly every record I bought since 1962 (1st one was "Joey Dee and the Starlighters Do the Peppermint Twist"). For the past 15 years I've kept detailed records of every purchase and most of it is transferred to an excel spreadsheet.

My question is that I'm having a hard time deciding how to track downloads from iTunes or emusic. I still have a real bias towards hard goods.

Should downloads really count for collectors????????

[johansen smith]

I say no. it's just not the same without a hard copy in your hands.

[Kid B]

I say no. it's just not the same without a hard copy in your hands.
agreed .....

[Moon Pix]

I agree too.

[dola]

i think it's unimportant unless the physical copy has some relic value to it, like was handed down say or signed by richie valens before he won that coin toss. if you can listen to the songs and they are properly backed up somehow then count it. no offense to mark ohe or peter saville but the music is the transcendent part; album art, interesting as it can be, is still "packaging." eyes on the prize, people!


*this is assuming the downloaded music was paid for.

[tinobeat]

Funk (I believe) put it best when he said something along the lines of:
"showing people your record collection on itunes or burned CDs is like showing people a your 'movie library' that's all made of movies taped off TV."

My itunes colibrary is MASSIVE, but I consider the actual records/CDs I own to be the collection, and if there's anything I think is crucial, I will add it to the collection, if possible. The digital stuff is more of a reference library.

[Salman]

But does showing your "collection" to people even matter? To me that seems a bit shallow if you think digital downloads should not be considered part of your collection. Do you listen to music to show your collection or to listen to the actual music?

[Fiona]

Maybe this whole argument represents a seachange in the way we define what comprises our collections?
Since dot we've pretty much determined ownership as being correlative to tangibility, and it's a big move to relate that to something that basically exists within a piece of equipment and can't exist independently.
If I paid for something, it's part of my collection. That's not a vanity issue, it's a fact - I purchased it; probably because it wasn't available on another format, rare as that may be.
Still, going back to Stew's point (and I think it was based on purchasing downloads) - I'd rather have the physical item and then choose to rip it to purely digital format, but that's not always an option.

[tinobeat]

But does showing your "collection" to people even matter? To me that seems a bit shallow if you think digital downloads should not be considered part of your collection. Do you listen to music to show your collection or to listen to the actual music?

that's a TOTALLY fair point, and appropriately pointed. I do concede that I sounded a bit shallow by focusing on the "showing" aspect. To look at it a different way:

When I look at the thousand or so LPs and lord knows how many CDs I own physically, there's a sense of accomplishment, as a lot of that came from hours and hours of scouring through stores, flipping, searching, talking to shopkeepers, etc. a lot of real legwork. The thousands of albums I've gotten online have entailed nothing more than a quick search on a torrent site. there's no sense of discovery, surprise, or treasure of any sort. So that's why the digital library comes across as not real to me. Its definitely awesome and I love it and will continue to accrue things in it, as I find great stuff and it teaches me about a lot, but that physical interaction you get from actual record collecting is a different thing entirely, and there's a semblance of pride (yes, I know, a deadly sin! :)) to be gotten from it.

[Kid B]

I don't necessarily think that it is solely tangibility (is that a word?) that adds to the preference of compact disc or vinyl. There is a unique experience too that is associated with buying music. When you go to your local record store you gain more than plastic and paper. For me nothing can replace the smell, the sight and the sound of going to my record store. Thumbing through records with friends, discussing, absorbing the ambience. It is a complete experience. Purchasing music solely through a computer seems so hollow.
Plus, the art and case are NOT just packaging. Sometimes it can serve as a lovely compliment to the music, interpretations of sound. It's also nice when the liner notes contain the lyrics. It's not just about possessing a tangible object, rather there is a whole uniqie experience associated here.

but, then again maybe i'm old fashion.

[johansen smith]

I'm with you Kid B. there are few things better in the world than opening a new CD and looking at the artwork/liner notes.

[tinobeat]

I'm with you Kid B. there are few things better in the world than opening a new CD and looking at the artwork/liner notes.

absolutely. for me its all about being on the subway and not even being able to wait to get home, to see if I could get a read on how an album would be from checking out the art...

[Mark Ohe]

all good points and points well taken on a fascinating subject.

i'll add three points:
1) someday when your hard drive crashes, dies or is stolen and you find yourself without any downloaded music to listen to you might find your opinion on this issue has changed.
2) you might be suprised at how much at least 99% of matador bands care deeply about their packaging and what it adds to their idea of presenting the music contained within.
3) one person's crap is another person's "let's get a groove on."

[TheSadDebaser]

There are record collections and then there's digital downloads. I don't think whether one purchases a download or gets it some other way makes a difference in where it stands as a collection.

I think an "MP3 library" as some might call it is a different thing all together from a "record collection."

[9000]

1) someday when your hard drive crashes, dies or is stolen and you find yourself without any downloaded music to listen to you might find your opinion on this issue has changed.


man, that will make you long for the era when crackheads would break into your car for empty jewelcases.

[Salman]

2) you might be suprised at how much at least 99% of matador bands care deeply about their packaging and what it adds to their idea of presenting the music contained within.


I have serious gripes with this. Granted, I do believe that artwork and packaging can add to the presentation of an album, but I find it a bit shallow if I'm listening to music for the artists intent and not my own. Why should anyone care about the artist when it comes to there own listening habits or whether or not to buy a record? Personally, I think music isn't about the artist or packaging of an album... it's about the actual musical content and what it means to me. Although I personally like seeing artists I like do well and try to support them as much as I can, I'm still a music fan and I listen, download and buy music for my own intent.

[Futureman]

I do believe that artwork and packaging can add to the presentation of an album, but I find it a bit shallow if I'm listening to music for the artists intent and not my own. Why should anyone care about the artist when it comes to there own listening habits or whether or not to buy a record? Personally, I think music isn't about the artist or packaging of an album... it's about the actual musical content and what it means to me.

Fair enough, Sal. But many people want the actual CD or LP for the same reason I want a good hardback edition of Middlemarch or The Brothers Karamazov (as opposed to mass-produced copies or PDF files). My favorite CDs are those that visually complement the music. And it may be the case that no one else cares whether my CDs have snazzier packaging. *I* care. I just happen to like well-crafted artifacts. After all, doesn't form count for something?

[tinobeat]

yeah, that's totally cool, Salman, if that's how you approach it. But for me, and for a lot of other music nerds/enthusiasts, the sounds are key, but they're not the whole. I do honestly believe the artist's vision extends to the presentation of her/his works. Not only that, but the heightened interaction with the music via the hysical handling of the medium is another facet to enjoying it. I can happily enjoy something I downloaded and listen to on a CD I burned or on my portable music player as I walk around or work out. But when I have the complete package, I involve myself more in the entire thing, the whole release.

If its an online-only release, where there is no art, just a bunch of mp3s, then simply downloading and listening is the whole thing, but if I know that there's a beautiful package out there, and I've only been transferring files, I feel like something is missing, I don't have the whole statement.

As far as the artist's intent vs. your own, that's totally fair, but the reason I listen to the artists I love is because I want to hear what they have to say/play/present, so their intent is crucial to me.

[dola]

Like all (none of) those important school papers, this is assuming that the songs you download get burned and saved on a cd-r. This nullifies the problem of something catastophic happening if the hard drive crashes or runs off. I guess it comes down to people needing that imprimatur of the official release to make their collections feel like one, but I wonder if they also toggle the light switch back and forth exactly 16 times a day or have traumatic potty training issues. That's a joke, but I do feel like those who think simply downloading the work is an inherently incomplete experience are simply creatures of habit and used to an anachronistic, albeit very nice, ritual. If you want to hold something, hold a hand. If you're craving the interaction, go to a show and talk to the merch guy.

It also think that these days the 99% of Matador bands and any others can take things much further artistically on their individual websites. Case in point, that Cat Power site is beautiful. Am I missing something by not having the album art?

Perhaps most importantly, those f'ing jewel cases are going to be around long after anyone cares about Mark (sorry dude), Chan, or me. How about we start thinking more long term than (at the most) making donations to plant-a-tree ngo's ala Grandaddy.

[stewrat]

so I'm pretty much of the belief that I must be able to hold something with real (albeit way too tiny) liner notes and graphics, etc. Back in 1983 when I started buying the first cds (import only) I kept them completely separate from my other vinyl log. It took me about two yeras to begin to merge the two lists. For a guy that used to lust for the aroma of fresh new vinyl, the cd was a bit antespetic and way too hard to open.

As Fiona said, I think we're experiencing the next seachange (can we work in a few more matador bands???). I like the instant gratification of a fast download, but I still like holding something. This gets complicated with internet-only downloads. For me I guess the first test was the Mission of Burma iTunes ep. I downloaded it, immediately burned it and printed the cover for a cd case. Then it was real - kinda ......

[tinobeat]

I guess it comes down to people needing that imprimatur of the official release to make their collections feel like one, but I wonder if they also toggle the light switch back and forth exactly 16 times a day or have traumatic potty training issues. That's a joke, but I do feel like those who think simply downloading the work is an inherently incomplete experience are simply creatures of habit and used to an anachronistic, albeit very nice, ritual. If you want to hold something, hold a hand. If you're craving the interaction, go to a show and talk to the merch guy.

ahahahaa :).

well, yeah, I'll happily admit there's an anachronism there, the ritual. And most importantly, romance. do you remember romance?

anyway, your point about the merch guy is exactly the point! I'd rather talk to shopkeepers, merch people, band members, etc. and help them ply their trade, rather than just ignore them for the antiseptic downloading. I'd love to see the look on a band's face as they stand behind the merch table and some kid says "hey, dude, SICK show! holy shit, you guys rule, I can't wait to download some of your jams from itunes (or maybe soulseek)! keep rockin!".

It also think that these days the 99% of Matador bands and any others can take things much further artistically on their individual websites. Case in point, that Cat Power site is beautiful. Am I missing something by not having the album art?

yes, you're still missing something. Or at least, if I was in your shoes, I'd be missing something. Have you even seen the art for The Greatest on vinyl? are you really saying that looking at the website (which is lovely too, btw), is nearly as satisfying as picking up a dazzling, irridescent LP sleeve, putting the wonderfully pressed wax (which makes the mp3s sound like pee, no less) on your turntable and luxuriating?

you can take your modern! we'll, I'll take it too, as a complement, but I'd much rather hang out at the latter-day rennaissance festival that is record collecting than forfeit it for data-only.

I almost feel like vinyl will be pressed still after CDs have become more rare in favor of downloads, because people who only buy CDs will make that transition more easily over to digital, but the vinyl lovers are a stalwart bunch who will still buy the wax and be annoying snobs (like me) regarding downloads.

[johansen smith]

telling someone that you have a great music collection because you have a lot of mp3s on your computer is like saying you have an amazing movie collection because you subscribe to HBO.

[tinobeat]

telling someone that you have a great music collection because you have a lot of mp3s on your computer is like saying you have an amazing movie collection because you subscribe to HBO.

brilliantly noted earlier:

Funk (I believe) put it best when he said something along the lines of:
"showing people your record collection on itunes or burned CDs is like showing people a your 'movie library' that's all made of movies taped off TV."

;)

[johansen smith]

I need to read te entire thread before I post I think. I hope no one's mentioned Mark Ohe or CD artwork yet.
EDIT: fuck.

[Moon Pix]

The thing is that if you put a record or cd on unless you intervine it'll take its natural path of playing the songs from beginning to end in the order intended with no breaks. If you have mp3 you can play it in any order you want and you have breaks where you have to click on the next song to play it.

Its not a natural way to listen to an album.

[dola]

Originally Posted by johansen smith
telling someone that you have a great music collection because you have a lot of mp3s on your computer is like saying you have an amazing movie collection because you subscribe to HBO.

Originally Posted by tinobeat
Funk (I believe) put it best when he said something along the lines of:
"showing people your record collection on itunes or burned CDs is like showing people a your 'movie library' that's all made of movies taped off TV."


To be more precise it's kind of like the most extensive HBO-On Demand ever. It's not like when you have no control over Miss Congeniality 2 playing for the millionth time. Not that I'm complaining. Reversing Funk and JS's analogy would bring it closer to taping the music off of a commercial radio station. Haha, blow it up Flex! Oof.

[Kid B]

Its not a natural way to listen to an album.
agreed. ..

[Elijah]

I think an "MP3 library" as some might call it is a different thing all together from a "record collection."However: the benefits that they provide are nearly identical, and they do sound incredibly similar.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I prefer having all of my music on a huge external hard drive to having two walls' worth of CD's and vinyl. It's very rare that I actually buy a CD these days. Getting an album off of EMusic is far cheaper than buying a CD; the packaging is only interesting enough to warrant the space it takes up about 10% of the time; and I just like having everything in one place.

I have no objection to this conversation, but if anyone thinks that it has anything to do with music, they're fooling themselves. I'm just sayin'.

[Elijah]

If you have mp3 you can play it in any order you want and you have breaks where you have to click on the next song to play it.This is not a natural way to listen to an MP3 playlist. What kind of MP3 player are you using?

[vesper]

The thing is that if you put a record or cd on unless you intervine it'll take its natural path of playing the songs from beginning to end in the order intended with no breaks. If you have mp3 you can play it in any order you want and you have breaks where you have to click on the next song to play it.

Its not a natural way to listen to an album.

this makes no sense. you have to "intervene" with an album made up of mp3s if you want to listen to it out of order. i mean, "shuffle" is only one click away whether it's on a home stereo or winamp. and rarely any studio album (apart from a couple songs here and there) will run from one song to the next without breaks, so the little two second gap that an mp3 player inserts is more or less true to the cd format as well. vinyl is different, i'll grant you that.

-edit-

whatever, elijah. next time i'll post faster than you. ;)

[Dean]

If a band releases an mp3 only thing, it makes me think they believe it's too crap to merit a full cd/lp release.

If a band releases an album on cd and not lp, it makes me think they're either too poor to afford the lp, or don't particularly care about the "album as experience" trip us weirdos get off on.

If you've downloaded an album, you don't own it. I've got records that have been around for close to 50 years. How long do you think your mp3 collection is going to last?

Besides, people, mp3s still sound weird and compressed--that's why they're mp3s (or mp4s or whatever).

Calling your digital scrap heap a record collection is one big step on the road to the giant pipeline that HBO-on-demands (that's right, i'm using it as a verb) all media right to your living room.

In the future you will pay for access, not ownership. It's a crap idea that basically boils down to signing up for a pay library.

That's not to say mp3s don't have their use. I think Pearl Jams super ridiculous 100-odd live album shenanigans would have been much better suited to an internet only release.

But if you don't respect the album as a complete package, with the art, band-dictated playlist, and everything else, you're throwing out the model for the distribution of most popular music since the late 1950s. And what do you get in return? Shitty sounding 1s and 0s that act more as background noise for your morning commute than a work of art.

No thank you, I'll keep my wall of records.

[Moon Pix]

One thing I don't get is the whole ipod cobblers. "Oh but you can listen to music whenever you want." What about waiting untill you get home? Wouldnt that make it more exciting?

[Paul]

Hell no! If I had to sit here at work all day without any music and/or NPR or Air America podcasts to listen to, I'd start shooting people.

[TheSadDebaser]

However: the benefits that they provide are nearly identical, and they do sound incredibly similar.

But you can't digitally duplicate the experience of listening to a real record, which a lot of people feel strongly about.

[Kid B]

I'd be interested to know what role age plays in this debate. It seems like the people that desire the physical vinyl or plastic for their collection would have had there most formative years musically speaking before the invention of the MP3. I'm 25 and have never had much taste for digital technology. Nothing will ever replace the feel, smell, and astetic of collecting vinyl.

[Elijah]

But you can't digitally duplicate the experience of listening to a real record, which a lot of people feel strongly about.You can't digitally duplicate the peripheral experiences that one associates with listening to an LP, this is true. The actual listening part can very easily be made identical, however.

[Elijah]

I'd be interested to know what role age plays in this debate. It seems like the people that desire the physical vinyl or plastic for their collection would have had there most formative years musically speaking before the invention of the MP3. I'm 25 and have never had much taste for digital technology. Nothing will ever replace the feel, smell, and astetic of collecting vinyl.I'm 32—I was a year younger than you are when I first touched a computer—and I'll take a high bitrate MP3 collection over most of the 1000+ LP's that used to clutter my apartment any day.

[stewrat]

Ok, I started this thing and I just turned 52 last week. I still cherish my vinyl (and actually listen to it), buy new cd's every week and just joined emusic as noted earlier. I would fall into the old category, but one that is rabid for new music and looking at any format. I love the collecting part of this and the pure digital download format just doen't make it.

[johansen smith]

23 years young

[My Friend Goo]

Here's my spin. I collect comic books. I'm fairly young and have grown up with the interent almost always being there. If I wanted to I could just read issues online, I could house my entire collection digitally scanned. But I am not collecting computer files, I collect comic books. I feel the same way about CD's; a true collecter needs the tangible artwork and holding case. What's more fun? scrolling a computer screen or looking through someones badass music collection that takes up a whole wall? Album art can be pretty fucking cool sometimes.
Oh well, I'm off.