Why is indie rock so white?

[chabysinisterra]

So I got home today and found the new issue of 'The New Yorker' in my mailbox. The t.o.c. had an article captioned "Why is indie rock so white?" which, of course, got my attention. The author, the rag's music critic, Sasha Frere-Jones, essentially argues that since the release of 'The Chronic' and the disappearance of samples in hip-hop, as well as the emergence of Dr. Dre and Snoop, indie rock, starting in the 1990s, has willfully retreated from a black aesthetic.

Pavement pops up, of course, and Frere-Jones suggests the firing of G. Young marked the band's movement away from elements of African-American music toward nods in the direction of obscure folk groups and 'oblique' lyrics. The Minutemen, according to the article, were able to 'miscegenate' black influences with their political songs -- Pavement are more or less cited as the anti-example of this.

It seems to me a curious and short-sighted article. Take, for ex., "Blue Hawaiian" from _Brighten the Corner_; that song clearly seems influenced by hip-hop. But Frere-Jones cites the Arcade Fire, Grizzly Bear, Panda Bear, Fiery Furnaces, Wilco, Decemberists, and the Shins as bands that are willfully white. Funny that he doesn't mention, say, Spoon, a band obviously bringing in elements of Motown and soul into their last several albums. Just curious if anyone read it and what their thoughts are...

Article can be found here: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones

[otto midnight]

not everything is deserving of critical review.

[Lukas]

I'm pretty sure Panda Bear sampled ladysmith black mambazo in a couple of songs on Person Pitch, so scratch that off the list.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

Sounds like a load of horseshit to me. Will (s)he next do a piece on why r&b is so "willfully" black?

[Paul]

This is the stupidest piece of half-baked rock crit wankery that will surface in 2007. Congrats SFJ, you're a winnah!

[johansen smith]

Why is white music so white guys, this is important

[Lukas]

As well, aren't The Fiery Furnaces very influenced by Motown music?

[johansen smith]

Well that's one of the many things Matthew Friedberger tells the press just to sort of fuck with them. If you ever get a chance you should read through his interviews, he goes out of his way to misrepresent every album to such an incredible degree that it borders on performance art.

[HBSP-2X]

sigh...if it isn't one thing it is another. maybe parts of our problems in society exist because these shallow stories are allowed to be published. congratulations to the writer who received 25 bucks for her story to be published, way to take one for humanity. i'll make sure i put my monocle in before i blow my nose in it.

[Lukas]

Well that's one of the many things Matthew Friedberger tells the press just to sort of fuck with them. If you ever get a chance you should read through his interviews, he goes out of his way to misrepresent every album to such an incredible degree that it borders on performance art.

Haha, I'll definitely check it out. Although, I do think there is a Motown influence in a lot of their songs, namely Benton Harbour Blues.

[johansen smith]

That one does sound like Dock of the Bay, you're right

[Lukas]

I've actually been loving Otis recently. I've been trying to learn how to play rhythm piano, and it's really inspiring stuff.

[Paul]

That one does sound like Dock of the Bay, you're right That would be Stax/Memphis then, which is an easier comparison to draw with the FFs than Motown.

[Moon Pix]

You are all going to rag the shit out of me for saying it but they obviously forgot that Cat Power's recent music is so black influenced it pretty much goes without saying.

Its all balls anyway. Im currently reading Rip It Up & Start Again and in the section about Wire Simon Reynolds makes the point, currectly in my view, that they purposefully avoided any black influence at a time when the in thing was to investigate african american and world music.

Being white is nothing new in music.

[pizzagratis]

Damn.

I guess Radio 4 did have it right all along then.

My bad.

[Patrick]

It's like an Onion headline... Rock Critics discovers indie rock music is white

[tinobeat]

It's like an Onion headline... Rock Critics discovers indie rock music is white

hahaha, totally.

JEEZ, white people...

[johansen smith]

I almost made a post about how hip hop music was primarily black and then I remembered that Matador alum MC Paul Barman already changed the game

[Dean]

Sasha Frere-Jones' article is just the latest peak in his career of publishing ridiculous things in The New Yorker. It's actually probably better than anything I'd read by him in the last year, a year that has mostly seen him writing multi-page articles on albums that DON'T MATTER TO ANYONE (a few thousand words on Janet Jackson's latest jam here, a few thousand more on Pink there--he believes he's being the uptown critic who's not too snobby to get down with the proletariat's pop music, but he could at least pick an album from someone not three records over the hill).

At least in this article, he's mentioning bands I like. He's completely wrong, but it's nice to see a paragraph on Pavement in The New Yorker.

[Moon Pix]

Description of Grizzly Bear from the article: "The band’s sound suggests a group of eunuchs singing next to a music box on a sunken galleon."

Total rock-critic wank.

[johansen smith]

Has anyone ever actually read an entire music review of anything before? Even when I wrote them I never looked above the paragraph I was writing.

[Patrick]

Has anyone ever actually read an entire music review of anything before? Even when I wrote them I never looked above the paragraph I was writing.

Uh, Jimmy Johnson, Byron Coley, Richard Meltzer, Michael Koenig, Tesco Vee, Gerard Cosloy... Johan Kugelberg... Lester Bangs... Michael Stax?

You, sir, are just so WRONG.

[tinobeat]

yeah, jeez, johansen. Just because most music reviews longer than 200 words are wankery, doesn't mean there aren't some amazing long-form music writers capable of writing music reviews.

Patrick's list pretty much sums it up.

[Gerard]

Tom Lax! Rev. Norb Ugly! Richard Lopez! Rick Hall! Jay Hinman!...sheesh...no shortage of people who know their stuff, now or then....

[tinobeat]

I love Jay Hinman's writing.. he makes me like bands I don't like

[Ruairi]

To be honest, I thought the article did raise a couple of interesting points, namely about the emergence of white liberal guilt in relation to appropriating 'black' music - the attitude of 'Hey don't worry, this isn't serious hip-hop, I'm just a goofy white guy' stance (which doesn't take Def Jux into account, but hey...).

The main feeling you get from the article is that he's saying 'Why aren't white people aping black forms successful anymore?', but his illustrative points really let him down. He forgets to mention his beloved LCD Soundsystem or Vampire Weekend, who would be a good counter-argument, and doesn't really address, say, the appropriation of Eastern music by both black and white artists. Or the influence of predominantly black Jazz on huge indie bands (Radiohead, YLT etc).

Surely he doesn't want all bands to sound like Ui?

[Dave]

To be honest, I thought the article did raise a couple of interesting points, namely about the emergence of white liberal guilt in relation to appropriating 'black' music - the attitude of 'Hey don't worry, this isn't serious hip-hop, I'm just a goofy white guy' stance (which doesn't take Def Jux into account, but hey...).

Well.... it seemed to me the article was more about Sasha's "white liberal guilt" than anything else, and I just can't fathom how anyone would find that interesting.

Dave

[Ruairi]

Well, it's interesting when it relates to him alone - I thought the stuff about his vocals was entertaining enough. And the idea that removed, arch 'appropriation' is a facet of liberal guilt is good when it's SFJ trying to explain why he feels conflicted about this, but not when he's applying that thinking to all indie bands everywhere.

Any of the interesting points have been talked to death in more recent times, though - message board discussions on Cocorosie/Kill Whitey or Hollertronix have yielded far more in the way of discussion on this subject than this article could.

[Ruairi]

Anyway, 2008's 'Arcade Fire... In The Jungle Groove' and 'Broken Social Scene Live At The Apollo' will put an end to this argument once and for all.

[pabost]

From pitchfork today:

Vampire Weekend, a band we've heard from once previously on Forkcast, are especially likely to annoy people who: 1) live in or around New York City; or, 2) spend a lot of time reading music blogs. The common thread, of course, being proximity to hype. Vampire Weekend have been an online buzz band all year-- which these days, oddly enough, means that both The New Yorker and The New York Times are likely to get on board-- and they haven't even released a proper record yet. What's more, they are young, presumably privileged Ivy Leaguers who dress like they're pledging Omega. And they rip off African music, for crying out loud.

Still, despite all these strikes against them, I enjoy listening to Vampire Weekend. They probably should be a small-time local concern at this point, a band whose demo tape a few dozen people have passed around and enjoyed, but those aren't the times were living in. In any event, they've now recorded a Daytrotter Session, and it's not likely to change any minds. I still dig how simple and unadorned everything sounds, with each instrument serving the tune, and "I Stand Corrected" and frequent show-closer "Oxford Comma" are both damn catchy songs. If you want to hear some amazing African pop, read this article and start spending some money. If you want to hear a fun, unassuming, stripped-down American guitar band making certain references to same, here again are Vampire Weekend.

Talk about liberal white guilt. Do you like the band or not? Answer the question, jerk.

[Moon Pix]

Maybe its just my Britishness showing but what strikes me first about that bit about Vampire Weekend (Vampire who? Exactly) recording a Daytrotter session (Daytrotter what? Exactly, this is NOT a revival of new pop ambition quite clearly) is the classicism in it, something I didnt really think pervaded America in the same way as it does over here in regards to music.

[dola]

Well their publicist has made sure that the Ivy League pedigree is front and center in every article/interview they've ever done so...

[Fiona]

Maybe its just my Britishness showing but what strikes me first about that bit about Vampire Weekend (Vampire who? Exactly) recording a Daytrotter session (Daytrotter what? Exactly, this is NOT a revival of new pop ambition quite clearly) is the classicism in it, something I didnt really think pervaded America in the same way as it does over here in regards to music.
Moon Pix, in a bizarre reversal of roles:
:confused:

[Moon Pix]

Moon Pix, in a bizarre reversal of roles:
:confused:

Why so confused Fiona?

Its just that I think recording a Donkeysucker session is quite a low thing to aim for if you really believe in your music.

[johansen smith]

Vampire Weekend could be the most amazing band in the world and they'd still be called Vampire Weekend.

[Dave]

Why so confused Fiona?

Its just that I think recording a Donkeysucker session is quite a low thing to aim for if you really believe in your music.

Huh? Not sure if I really want to know, but what the hell, I'll take the bait. What is is that you've got against Daytrotter?

Dave

[9000]

From pitchfork today:

Vampire Weekend, a band we've heard from once previously on Forkcast, are especially likely to annoy people who: 1) live in or around New York City; or, 2) spend a lot of time reading music blogs.

holy shit, i wouldn't even want to know the outcome if, instead, this read: Vampire Weekend, a band we've heard from once previously on Forkcast, are especially likely to annoy people who: 1) live in or around New York City; [I]AND, 2) spend a lot of time reading music blogs.

[Futureman]

Talk about liberal white guilt. Do you like the band or not? Answer the question, jerk.

:D

You beat me to it, pabost.

[Ruairi]

They probably should be a small-time local concern at this point, a band whose demo tape a few dozen people have passed around and enjoyed, but those aren't the times were living in.

'WHY OH WHY ARE WE GIVING VAMPIRE WEEKEND SO MUCH ATTENTION: Pitchfork writer writes article about how people shouldn't be writing articles about hot new band Vampire Weekend'

[Lukas]

I personally think they are pretty good.

[johansen smith]

According to Wikipedia, they have a song called "Cape Cod Kwassa Kwassa." Lukas, It's not too late to edit your post.

[Lukas]

I caught a bit of their set when they last came to Montreal and I was really impressed. Some bands have bad taste, but play great music. I'm sure we can make a list or something of it.

P.S - why would you change your signature from the a.d quote??

[Moon Pix]

Huh? Not sure if I really want to know, but what the hell, I'll take the bait. What is is that you've got against Daytrotter?

Nothing particuarly (Id never even heard of them/it/what untill yesterday). Im just not much into the whole rock snob 'stay in the indie ghetto and be hip' mentality that you tend to see. I watched that horrible film Kill Your Idols yesterday because I hadnt seen it in a while and that rock snob shit is all over it. Jim Thirwell moaning about all of these modern New York bands having some ambition that goes beyond playing in front of a few dozen hipsters with funny hair in some club in New York. Its all about playing on peoples sense of cultural superiority and doubly its a kind of loser mentality/ copout because you're creating this idea that you've achieved something massive ("wow man, you did a Donkeysucker session") when in fact it means practically nothing in the outside world. If you can create an air of cool around something, you can get indie rockers to buy anything.

Black Dice proved that.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

MoonPix, have you looked at the archives (http://daytrotter.com/sessionArchives) at DayTrotter? In addition to bands from "the indie ghetto" there are plenty of more well-known artists there, including some from Matador.

[Lukas]

I don't see any negatives for a band to do a Daytrotter session, unless of course they don't sound great live.

[pizzagratis]

Nothing particuarly (Id never even heard of them/it/what untill yesterday). Im just not much into the whole rock snob 'stay in the indie ghetto and be hip' mentality that you tend to see. I watched that horrible film Kill Your Idols yesterday because I hadnt seen it in a while and that rock snob shit is all over it. Jim Thirwell moaning about all of these modern New York bands having some ambition that goes beyond playing in front of a few dozen hipsters with funny hair in some club in New York. Its all about playing on peoples sense of cultural superiority and doubly its a kind of loser mentality/ copout because you're creating this idea that you've achieved something massive ("wow man, you did a Donkeysucker session") when in fact it means practically nothing in the outside world. If you can create an air of cool around something, you can get indie rockers to buy anything.

Black Dice proved that.

so is saying you don't like daytrotter sessions not about playing on your own sense of cultural superiority then?

[Miss Tasty Princess]

I don't see any negatives for a band to do a Daytrotter session, unless of course they don't sound great live.
The ones I've downloaded have all been great.

[Dave]

Nothing particuarly (Id never even heard of them/it/what untill yesterday). .

So your slag was based on tons of research? I think I can see a glimmer of a point being made in your post, however there are so many grey areas, fine lines (maybe even more than swift, definitive judgements made after exhaustive research) etc. It's enough to put someone off the internet forever.

Dave

[tinobeat]

Nothing particuarly (Id never even heard of them/it/what untill yesterday).

so wait, you only discovered Daytrotter yesterday and a quick glance boiled your blood enough for you to come up with a derogatory pet name for it?

Black Dice proved that.

Do you just slag everything you don't quite understand as garbage? We've already gotten you to like a bunch of stuff you've determined to be "unlistenable", I see we have a new project...

[Moon Pix]

Do you just slag everything you don't quite understand as garbage? We've already gotten you to like a bunch of stuff you've determined to be "unlistenable", I see we have a new project...

You will be hard pressed to get me into them Tino. They are anti-musical beyond anything Ive ever heard before.

[Moon Pix]

so is saying you don't like daytrotter sessions not about playing on your own sense of cultural superiority then?

KILL ALL HIPSTERS!

I just don't like them, with their ridiculous hair, bad dress sense and ridiculous record collections.

Theyre all trying to be Lester Bangs and find todays answer to the Godz before anybody else.

[Fiona]

I just don't like them, with their ridiculous hair
On that basis, at least, you should get on really well with 9000.

[tinobeat]

You will be hard pressed to get me into them Tino. They are anti-musical beyond anything Ive ever heard before.

Funny, because they're actually stunningly musical in really exciting ways. I mean, he 10 minutes you probably heard of them before you decided they were total pants probably takes some actual close listening, and you're not doing a great job in this thread of convincing me that you listen much before judging...

[Paul]

I'm not with Moon Pix on many points here, except these:

Black Dice is unlistenable garbage.
Kill Yr Idols is an utterly hateable film.

[tinobeat]

I guess I don't get why people feel the need to actually disparage a band instead of just saying "I don't get/like it."

Black Dice is actually wonderfully listenable. Beaches & Canyons and Creature Comforts are practically pop records compared to some of their peers. I don't think everyone should or would like it, but people's tendencies towards hyperbolic negativity is a bummer. I'm far from innocent of it, but I've been trying to wean myself away from it. I don't see anything productive coming from it. I mean, if you think Black Dice is doing the abstract sound/collage/noise thing BADLY, that's a different thing, tell us about it, but I have a feeling most people excitedly panning that band just think "I can't hum along, jeez, they must be playing a joke on the listener"

[tinobeat]

Also, I almost feel bad for Vampire Weekend. I mean, sure they're probably doing great because of all this, but as has been mentioned, they're now becoming famous as the band that became famous for people talking about how famous they've become from people talking about how famous they've become from people talking about them.

[Paul]

I mean, if you think Black Dice is doing the abstract sound/collage/noise thing BADLY, that's a different thing, tell us about it... My perception of Black Dice probably has a great deal to do with how they came across in Kill Yr Idols, actually. I don't think I could respect what they were doing even if they were composing Brahms-like symphonies.

[Moon Pix]

Funny, because they're actually stunningly musical in really exciting ways. I mean, he 10 minutes you probably heard of them before you decided they were total pants probably takes some actual close listening, and you're not doing a great job in this thread of convincing me that you listen much before judging...

Noise is noise, no matter how long you listen to it.

[tinobeat]

which brings me to my next question:
what *is* Kill Your Idols?

I've learned to not let my perceptions of bands as people color their music, or I wouldn't like any music...

[tinobeat]

Noise is noise, no matter how long you listen to it.

I bet if you had lived 40 years ago you'd be complaining about all this "rocking and rolling and these kids I mean why does it have to be so loud?"

It doesn't even take much listening to hear the 1)beat 2)harmony 3)composition in any black dice album. Its OK to just admit you don't get it.

[Fiona]

Noise is noise, no matter how long you listen to it.
And it can be rewarding to listen to too.

Oh dear, this is the ATP's-Nightmare-Before-Christmas thread all over again.

[Dave]

Noise is noise, no matter how long you listen to it.

And "Noise is for heros, music is for zeros."

[Paul]

http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Your-Idols-Sonic-Youth/dp/B000H30CHG/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-6861145-7475968?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1193165894&sr=8-1

It's a doc film from close to two years ago that pits 70s NYC against 00s NYC. I reviewed it for 75OL last year and said this:

"Hey you, don't watch this! The music from NYC in the 1970s and early '80s did a fantastic job of speaking for itself, and the present-day NYC bands at least seem smart on record. Rather than recount the history and postulate on the future, though, Kill Your Idols is really just a showcase for Lydia Lunch, Glenn Branca and Arto Lindsay to congratulate themselves while metaphorically castrating the bands of today. The problem? All the current bands who are interviewed (Black Dice and A.R.E. Weapons in particular) actually come across as complete knobs. Nobody wins."

[tinobeat]

sweet, nice to know I dodged a bullet without even trying..

I interviewed Bjorn from Black Dice once, and it was a real pleasure talking to someone that thoughtful and sincerely interested in making interesting and challenging music instead of following fashion.

[Moon Pix]

which brings me to my next question:
what *is* Kill Your Idols?

I've learned to not let my perceptions of bands as people color their music, or I wouldn't like any music...

A film that starts off talking about Suicide then goes through the arty/pretentious (delete as applicable) No Wave scene in the late '70s, Sonic Youth and then skips the '90s altogether and goes straight into the Strokes/Yeah YeahsLiars thing at the beginnig of the 2000s. Basically plenty of nothing nobody bands that are utterly contemptible such as DNA, Flux something or other and the 'worst of the bunch' ARE Weapons who I just wanted to slap after about 10 seconds of them being on the screen.

Its just using art as an excuse for being sans talent. Arto Lindsay even says in the film himself that at the time he couldnt play chords. If you can't play chords what are you doing on stage with a guitar slung over you shoulder?:confused:

No Wave - seldom has a movement been so unimportant.

EDIT: I was typing this at the same time as Paul was typing his but he beat to the end.:)

[Paul]

Aw, that's harsh. DNA are fun to listen to if you're in the mood, and Arto has proven over time that he's a skilled musician in non-traditional ways. But he was awfully self-righteous in interviews, along with Branca and Lunch and just about every other person interviewed for the film on either end of the spectrum.

The only band who came off looking really good? Gogol Bordello, who dwell in an entirely different plane of existence.

[tinobeat]

Arto Lindsay rules forever. He can do whatever the hell he wants.

[tinobeat]

No Wave - seldom has a movement been so unimportant.


funny, because you like music that wouldn't have existed without it.

[Paul]

Yeah, so true. Punk --> "Indie" wasn't exactly a straight line. It definitely had to go through No Wave to get where it is right now.

[Moon Pix]

The only band who came off looking really good? Gogol Bordello, who dwell in an entirely different plane of existence.

Id pretty much agree with that assesment. Apart from ARE Weapons who are on their own plane altogether of awfulness, the worst bit for me is when Karen O tries to be a bit clever by saying "its really postmodern" (talking about her music). Its obvious from the tone of her voice she doesnt really know what she's talking about.

Of course the little twat out of the Liars recounting the story of how they got the name comes a close second. I hadnt been so enthralled by a story since I read the Illuminatus Trilogy.

[Moon Pix]

funny, because you like music that wouldn't have existed without it.

Are you sure? Ive always just thought of No Wave as being a brattier more annoying version of punk rock, kind of like your kid brother throwing your fathers tool box down the stairs, recording it and calling it music.

[Paul]

Are you sure? Ive always just thought of No Wave as being a brattier more annoying version of punk rock, kind of like your kid brother throwing your fathers tool box down the stairs, recording it and calling it music.

Couldn't be wronger. Punk moved music forward by moving it backwards. No Wave moved music forward by moving it sideways, up, down, diagonally and in a twist.

[tinobeat]

Jeez, Moon Pix is a fount of negativity today, you feeling alright, buddy? "little twat" from Liars? Why so angry?

You like Sonic Youth, right? I'd venture that modern guitar music wouldn't sound the way it does without DNA, Glenn Branca, all those No Wave pioneers.

[Moon Pix]

Jeez, Moon Pix is a fount of negativity today, you feeling alright, buddy? "little twat" from Liars? Why so angry?

Watching that film again jst stoked my fire. Plus having been at work today Ive had to listen to Radio 1. Hearing Scouting for Girls half a dozen times in the same day is not good for the soul.

Between them and the Enemy I give up.

[Ruairi]

Originally Posted by Moon Pix
Noise is noise, no matter how long you listen to it.

And what a beautiful, beautiful thing it is.

[Salman]

sweet, nice to know I dodged a bullet without even trying..

me to!

I interviewed Bjorn from Black Dice once, and it was a real pleasure talking to someone that thoughtful and sincerely interested in making interesting and challenging music instead of following fashion.

Yeah, I talked with Eric Coupland a few months back, and he seemed like a humble, down-to earth dude. Nothing remotely snobby about him.

[Moon Pix]

Not that I want to turn this into the Kill Your Idols anti-appreciation thread... but are/were Flux Information Sciences important to anybody anywhere ever in the history of the world apart from the two idiots in the band itself?

[Miss Tasty Princess]

If you can't play chords what are you doing on stage with a guitar slung over you shoulder?:confused:
I didn't learn to play chords until after the Happy Flowers had released two records and played live several times. I also wrote some of the music for my other band's first album without knowing how to play chords; I showed the guitarist the notes and he took it from there. I'm no Arto Lindsay, though. Good Lord, he is incredible.

No Wave - seldom has a movement been so unimportant.
This has just been added to "The dumbest thing you've ever heard someone say about music" thread on another board where I post.

[Moon Pix]

This has just been added to "The dumbest thing you've ever heard someone say about music" thread on another board where I post.

Im just saying that beyond a really small number of people it hasnt really had any influence at all. All that came out of it was a handful of one two fuck you lets be confrontational (read: musically inept) self defeating bands for art students to pretend they like so they can get a few cool points.

Its the championing of the amataurish over the talented. We generally agree on this board from things Ive read here that Neil Young is pretty fuckin awesome. Id hazard the guess that a lot of thats to do with his craft. This stuff isnt craft, its just sloppy fumbling disguised as artistic expression. Artistic expression is a ppretty ridiculous concept when you can hide anything behind it.

[Paul]

I think you might have been done a disservice by seeing that stupid documentary before hearing those records. Your opinions seem tainted by how surprisingly douchey all the old No Wave people seem to act in the present day.

[johansen smith]

I see where Moon Pix is coming from, he prefers more traditional music in terms of structure and presentation-- a position, mind you, that is neither flawed or accurate but a matter of taste. I also see where those who attack him are coming from, as no one likes to see musicians they hold in high esteem written off for the very reasons they hold appeal. Yet this board, more in the last year it seems than ever before, has moved so much towards the more experimental in the collective tastes, a move I suspect is due to the mean age of the regular posters hovering somewhere in the thirties. It's not surprising that someone who has lived with music for so long yearns for acts who are doing something novel with music, but to get mad at people who don't like noise as though it were an accessible medium are just as bad as those who write off noise as not being music. So what I'm saying is ban everyone who posted in this thread.

[Moon Pix]

Does this mean Patrick will be running round with the banning axe?;)

[Moon Pix]

I think you might have been done a disservice by seeing that stupid documentary before hearing those records. Your opinions seem tainted by how surprisingly douchey all the old No Wave people seem to act in the present day.

Conspicuous by his absence was James Chance. Whats up with that? Did he die the junkie death or did he just not want to be spoken to?

[Paul]

Conspicuous by his absence was James Chance. Whats up with that? Did he die the junkie death or did he just not want to be spoken to?
He's still around. I think the Contortions even toured in the past year or two.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

to get mad at people who don't like noise as though it were an accessible medium are just as bad as those who write off noise as not being music
It's one thing to not like something but quite another to make the sort of statements of which Moon Pix is fond.

Im just saying that beyond a really small number of people it hasnt really had any influence at all.
Hmmmmm . . . WRONG.

I'd say No Wave's influence can be heard in:

Big Black
The Birthday Party
Einstürzende Neubauten
Sonic Youth
Swans

And that's just a few important bands, off the top of my head, who have gone on to influence countless other bands.

I guess that makes No Wave about as influential as The Velvet Underground or The Stooges.

[Fiona]

He's still around. I think the Contortions even toured in the past year or two.
Yup, a friend of mine brought him over for a show here a couple of weeks ago.

[Moon Pix]

Big Black

I cant really see it. A bit abrasive granted but to my ears Big Black arent really that far removed from hard rock.

They did tune their guitars.

[pizzagratis]

eh...it's alright.

i suppose i feel sort of the same way about stuff like steve vai and gary hoey, though conceivably, maybe, someday, heck-it's-possible, there will be someone i like recording under their influence.

however, i would like to say that indierockmusic, as it stands now, would be much more boring right now if not for people banging around on instruments they were not formally trained to play, at least in the way i listen to it.
also...vampire weekend are fine.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

I cant really see it. A bit abrasive granted but to my ears Big Black arent really that far removed from hard rock.

They did tune their guitars.
Listen to the beginning of "Cables" and tell me Albini wasn't aping Arto.

[tinobeat]

I cant really see it. A bit abrasive granted but to my ears Big Black arent really that far removed from hard rock.

They did tune their guitars.

whether or not they tuned their guitars is totally beside the point. No Wave wasn't about melody or lack thereof. It was about something much much bigger. Big Black would never have existed if No Wave hadn't happened. Its not about a "fuck you", it was about a ruthlessly futuristic vision in which their idea of rock music was even less beholden to tradition than punk's. It was barely rock music, but it changed the entire game. Instead of just pissing everywhere in order to seem properly opinionated, listen to music, and maybe read about it. maybe consider that one film isn't really much to base opinions on.

I just wish you were less fond of making these totally absolute statements that pretty much undercut any credibility you might have when actually talking positively about music. Its not very interesting talking to people about music when they have unwaveringly negative opinions formed by about 2 minutes of thought.


regarding johansen's theory, I like it! I think its hilarious, though that he links the board's relatively advanced mean age (compared to another board I frequent) to its sonic adventurousness. It seems counterintuitive, thinking of cultural stereotypes, that the older folks are the ones willing to tear down tradition to find excitement in the untraditional. That's the job of the youth, in my mind. But hell, I'm not even thirty, so I'm still "youth" and I'm tearin shit down like WHAAA?

:)

[Moon Pix]

Big Black would never have existed if No Wave hadn't happened.

In that case I just guess that I prefer people who can take the radical and tame it, take this strange shit and frame it in chord progressions and song structures. Kind of like what the Beatles did with Frank Zappa or the Velvet Underground applying Cale's weirdness to Reed's pop songs.

Isnt No Wave just being different for the sake of being different though? In the film Lunch talked about "making a music that referenced nothing" which kind of suggests to me that its all an intellectual exercise and a big put on.

[tinobeat]

In that case I just guess that I prefer people who can take the radical and tame it, take this strange shit and frame it in chord progressions and song structures. Kind of like what the Beatles did with Frank Zappa or the Velvet Underground applying Cale's weirdness to Reed's pop songs.

Isnt No Wave just being different for the sake of being different though? In the film Lunch talked about "making a music that referenced nothing" which kind of suggests to me that its all an intellectual exercise and a big put on.

Beatles did something to Zappa?

Making music/art that references nothing is difficult, but its not an unusual thing in much of 20th century cultyre. Intellectual excercises are not really problematic to me, I guess.

In the end, yes, it makes sense what you're saying. I guess I just hope "tame" becomes as boring for you as it did for me, because gosh, what's the point of not ever being challenged? And I hope that you can realize that because its not "tame" doesn't mean its total unlistenable shite forever. Tame never innovated anything. Taming things ends in James Taylor, and nobody wants that.

[Moon Pix]

Beatles did something to Zappa?

I believe it has something to do with Sgt Peppers or their stuff just after it (Im not a Beatles fan so I don't actually know the precise chronology of these things). Apparently they heard the cut up stuff on the second side of his Freak Out! album and decided that they wanted in on it so they got George Martin to bung in weird noises on things like "I Am the Walrus" but it was within the context of a pop song with proper verses and choruses, therefore tamed.

[tinobeat]

I believe it has something to do with Sgt Peppers or their stuff just after it (Im not a Beatles fan so I don't actually know the precise chronology of these things). Apparently they heard the cut up stuff on the second side of his Freak Out! album and decided that they wanted in on it so they got George Martin to bung in weird noises on things like "I Am the Walrus" but it was within the context of a pop song with proper verses and choruses, therefore tamed.

its possible, but I don't know that I'd call "I Am the Walrus" very tame at all, and I believe the Beatles and George Martin would probably bristle at the suggestion that its tame. We've been conditioned to think of that song as pretty straightforward, it having been a part of the canon for some 4 decades, but that's one pretty fucked up song. You'd probably complain about them not singing in key and and the weird moaning noises all over it and curse it out if a band released it now, no?

Anyway, we've gotten so off topic. Its like in an Art History class someone asks why Pollock is art and then the whole day is shot to hell...

[Miss Tasty Princess]

someone asks why Pollock is art and then the whole day is shot to hell...
That's a quick answer, though! "Art is whatever you can get away with" (Warhol quote?)

[tinobeat]

you'd THINK it was that easy! But you'd get the one kid going "but *I* could paint like that" or "there's no technical skill in that art" and it would go back and forth, a snake eating its own butt, for ever.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

I once heard a local movie critic tell a customer in the store where he worked that he threw tar on a Pollock when on a 7th grade school trip. When he was told to clean it up, he said he would if the teacher could show him where it was on the painting!

But . . .

When he wrote his movie review, the story changed and he was in college . . .

And in neither telling did he explain just how he was able to get TAR into an art museum undetected, whether 12- or 20-years-old.

In other words, to "prove" that modern/abstract art is a load of liberal crap (to fit his diatribe against the movie he was reviewing), he had to resort to lying. That's OK, though, 'cause it's only a lie if a liberal is telling it, I suppose.

Anyhow, if someone tells you they can "paint like that" then tell them to get back to you when their work is hung in galleries and homes throughout the world.

[tinobeat]

oh yeah, I totally agree. I'm just saying, those days were the bane of my art school existence, when some kid would start going on about how the person couldn't even draw, why was it art, bla bla bla, missing the point so profoundly..

[dola]

Can we talk about how the CIA funded No-Wave too?

<i>Clement Greenberg supported Pollock's work on formalistic grounds. It fit well with Greenberg's view of art history as being about the progressive purification in form and elimination of historical content.</i>

[Moon Pix]

its possible, but I don't know that I'd call "I Am the Walrus" very tame at all, and I believe the Beatles and George Martin would probably bristle at the suggestion that its tame.

Im not saying its tame, Im just saying it tame in comparison to what Zappa was doing with the same techniques. He was doing 20 minute sound collages whereaes they were writing actual songs and then putting in weird noises afterwards.

[tinobeat]

I think you're doing what the Beatles did with that song a MASSIVE disservice by using the word "tame" though. I think you're making too much of a causal link between Frank Zappa's collages (especially as he was hardly an innovator of sound collage) and that ONE song. The Beatles also did some wild sound collage, as did many rock bands of the era, it was quite de rigeur. It was about an ongoing conversation happening in music and art where things were explored and mixed and innovated. It had nothing to do with taming, except maybe in terms of what people not really interested in music would be willing to listen to and enjoy.

either way, you use of the word "taming" as a positive makes me sad. What a terribly boring approach to enjoying music.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

Pat Boone's recordings of Little Richard's hit singles are so much better than the far-too-wild originals.

[Moon Pix]

either way, you use of the word "taming" as a positive makes me sad. What a terribly boring approach to enjoying music.

All Im talking about is reeling in the eccentricity a bit.

Is that such a bad thing?

[Elijah]

All Im talking about is reeling in the eccentricity a bit.

Is that such a bad thing?One could argue that art—that which we find compelling, anyway—is itself an eccentricity.
.

[tinobeat]

All Im talking about is reeling in the eccentricity a bit.

Is that such a bad thing?

Yeah, you wouldn't want anything to be too exciting or original now, would you?

[Moon Pix]

Yeah, you wouldn't want anything to be too exciting or original now, would you?

Just listenable thankyou, beyond that it can be anything it wants including exciting. Earlier on I mentioned Neil Young. Id say he's pretty exciting. Its just that he didnt find it necessary to abandon every single established rule regarding the construction of music to achieve that excitement.

Im finished talking about it.

[Fiona]

Moon Pix, could you please check your copy of The Rulebook, because I think you'll find there have been several more editions since 1970.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

All Im talking about is reeling in the eccentricity a bit.

Is that such a bad thing?
It mightn't be if you hadn't already written, in this thread alone:

nothing nobody bands that are utterly contemptible such as DNA
If you can't play chords what are you doing on stage with a guitar slung over you shoulder?
No Wave - seldom has a movement been so unimportant.
self defeating bands for art students to pretend they like
Its the championing of the amataurish over the talented
just sloppy fumbling disguised as artistic expression
Of course, this isn't the first time you've accused people of pretending to like something you don't just because you don't so they must be lying. :rolleyes:

[Moon Pix]

Indie rock is far too white. I think Barry Adamson should play bass in every band in the world ever. When he dies his son should do the same and then his son's son.

[tinobeat]

Back the the original topic, I still don't see why White (as in, not rooted in African musics or having directly audible influence from African musics) is a bad thing in any way. The whole thing reeks of "Black People drive like this and White People drive like this"

and regarding the other point, "listenable" changes as music evolves. Demanding that music be "listenable" by by your current standards is begging for music to end. When Neil Young first began, people thought he had a pretty "unlistenable" voice, because he's not really always concerned about staying on key, has a pretty bizarre timbre to his voice, and generally sings way too high for his range. In 1968 you would have admonished him for singing that way and would have probably asked him to tone down the eccentricity, by your current logic. Bob Dylan was roundly mocked for having a terrible singing voice, by the "listenable" standards of the time.

Now, not all music has to tear down walls to be good. But to set strict boundaries and demand they be adhered to is closing your mind to any new ideas.

[Moon Pix]

Now, not all music has to tear down walls to be good. But to set strict boundaries and demand they be adhered to is closing your mind to any new ideas.

What I shall do then from now on is this- Ill listen to this weird stuff and then if I come across anything I like Ill mention it in the new listening thread and say what I like about it. If I don't like it I will simply not mention it cause I can see Im getting up peoples noses.

[Elijah]

MP, with all due respect...

Comments like the ones HCI quoted above seem rooted in the idea of invalidating art that other people like, rather than simply expressing your distaste for it. I sincerely doubt that anyone here would find fault with you for simply saying that you don't have any use for No Wave. It's when you unilaterally dismiss its importance to other people, and imply that they pretend to like it as a means of intellectual one-upmanship that the discussion becomes poisoned. At that point, you're not really talking about music anymore.

[Lukas]

Of course, this isn't the first time you've accused people of pretending to like something you don't just because you don't so they must be lying. :rolleyes:

How long have you spent compiling that list? Three failed marriages and two lost jobs?

[Lukas]

BTW Moon Pix, you should totally listen to Comus.

[Miss Tasty Princess]

How long have you spent compiling that list? Three failed marriages and two lost jobs?
Uh, five minutes? Every MP quote was from this very thread. In addition, no failed marriages in my past (14th anniversary coming up next week, though) and only one lost job in my employment history.

[Lukas]

dude, relax...and congratulations.