Holy shit this album rules

[tinobeat]

I've been listening to it all day. Thank you, again, for making this happen.

[johansen smith]

I can't wait for my preorder to arrive, I never sit these things out til the official release anymore, but I think this thing is made to be heard blasted from an old boombox.

[vesper]

yeah, rip it off is the fucking biz. i'll be playing this for awhile.

[Lukas]

It's pretty fucking good. Drop Out is the standout.

[Benjamin]

First, I join the chorus. "Rip it Off" is hot shit.

Second, at the end of side one on the vinyl version, my record does not automatically stop playing - the record keeps spinning, the needle stays in the same groove, and I get "noise" unil I get up and turn record over. Is this (1) intended and part of TNV's master plan; or (2) a problem with my record player (it doesn't do this with other records); or (3) a problem with the particular record?

[vesper]

mine does the same thing. i kinda like it.

[earl grey]

i'm still waiting! hopefully it will be in my hands soon.

[Jesper]

that's on purpose. it's a locked groove.

[Benjamin]

Locked groove? Is that like what's at the end of "Day in the Life" of Sgt. Pepper's? How do you folks reproduce that for CD consuming types?

[Benjamin]

Just noticed the resurrection of Matador "flag"/label on side 1 of TNV vinyl. I don't think I've seen this on a Matador LP since early Pavement, Superchunk, Liz Phair? Cool.

[Elijah]

Locked groove? Is that like what's at the end of "Day in the Life" of Sgt. Pepper's? How do you folks reproduce that for CD consuming types?You get them to purchase a turntable.

[tinobeat]

Just noticed the resurrection of Matador "flag"/label on side 1 of TNV vinyl. I don't think I've seen this on a Matador LP since early Pavement, Superchunk, Liz Phair? Cool.


I love that label so much. I wish they used it more! But if you notice, TNV was actually pretty clever and pulled a "watery domestic" kind of deal where they took an old Matador LP and drew over the label with their own info. I've been trying to figure out which one it is...

[dola]

for better or worse, you can't sell a Volkswagen with a Times New Viking song.


They'll see about that!!! Hah, can't wait to get home today to dl the first 7* songs!


*My basket o'tracks gets refreshed every 1st of the month on eMusic and that's all i've got.

[Benjamin]

I love that label so much. I wish they used it more! But if you notice, TNV was actually pretty clever and pulled a "watery domestic" kind of deal where they took an old Matador LP and drew over the label with their own info. I've been trying to figure out which one it is...

Oh yeah! Didn't notice that, but I see now how the old label address and manufacturer got blacked out.

[vesper]

this album still rules, but i gotta say, i can really only handle it on vinyl. i got the mp3s on wednesday and the sound is so shrill on my laptop speakers that i have to keep it at 1/4 volume just to prevent my head from splitting in half. that's cool 'n all. i'm glad i have the vinyl.

[tinobeat]

haha, totally. Its so much louder than anything on my ipod that when I get to it on shuffle I keep thinking I'm gonna get hurt.

It sounds amazing on the wax.

Oh and yeah, it rules even more than I thought it ruled.

[HBSP-2X]

I have been working on an install all week, havent had an hour to sit and enjoy the record, however that time is now.

[johansen smith]

I've never had to turn my stereo down to 10 before, but this album required it. The album's unmixtapeable!

[earl grey]

the title of this thread is all i've been thinking for the last five days.* i had high, high expectations for this album and TNV still managed to knock it out of the park. it wasn't until saturday that i started listening to something else!

* well, other than the ins and outs of my student note. i now have a draft (52 pages!), but it is very much a draft.

[Fiona]

According to iTunes I've clocked up 223 listens to tracks from Rip it Off already. Into the top five with a bang!

[Kid B]

The jury is still out for me on this one; there is a lot of stuff I really like on this album, but listening to it I can't help but get the feeling that they're using the whole "low-fi" thing as a schtick. In this day in age you really have to go out of your way to make something low-fi (my Boss digital recorder can record better quality). They have a lot of talent and a good sound under that fuzz, hopefully they'll drop the schtick.

[vesper]

i think the recording works like another instrument, not like a schtick.

[Patrick]

i think the recording works like another instrument, not like a schtick.

Great quote

[Kid B]

i think the recording works like another instrument, not like a schtick.
It just comes off a bit gimmicky to me; if you got rid of the fuzz/feedback they would still be solid songs. I appreciate the album any which way though.

[tinobeat]

They'd also be solid songs if played on piano and trumpet, but nobody's suggesting the guitars, organ and drums are "gimmicky".

[stevethehouse]

It just comes off a bit gimmicky to me; if you got rid of the fuzz/feedback they would still be solid songs. I appreciate the album any which way though.

The thing that gets me is the lack of variety in their sonic palette. The best lo-fi bands like GBV and Sebadoh had a lot of different approaches to getting their sounds, varying song to song and sometimes even within a song. I get the impression that TNV just sort of defaults to the fuzzed out sound for everything. There's just nothing very inventive about it. Bands like TNV should be filed under "regressive rock"

[tinobeat]

I grant that, but just because TNV specialize in a savage kind of indie primitivism doesn't make them less of a band, and I think its folly to require "invention." They work within a form and are brilliant at it.

[stevethehouse]

I grant that, but just because TNV specialize in a savage kind of indie primitivism doesn't make them less of a band, and I think its folly to require "invention." They work within a form and are brilliant at it.

I never implied that I required it, but I've encountered so many reviews that act like what TNV is doing is as revolutionary of an approach as the first wave of punk.

So many acts have done and will continue to do it better but they will never get their due because their music isn't dripping with that stupid hipster irony.

[vesper]

where are you reading these reviews? i haven't encountered a single one that comes close to what you describe. also, define "hipster irony."

[stevethehouse]

where are you reading these reviews? i haven't encountered a single one that comes close to what you describe. also, define "hipster irony."

Hipster Irony:

http://www.matadorrecords.com/matablog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ole-760_rip_it_off.jpg

[vesper]

nothing about that is self-evidently "hipster irony." i mean, yr basically giving me a tautology here, which ain't convincing anyone. on the other hand, you are confirming my original suspicion: that "hipster irony" is an utterly empty phrase bandied about by speakers who, for whatever reason, feel the urge to express opinions that aren't very well investigated.

[vesper]

also, where are you reading these reviews you spoke of earlier? that is a genuine question.

[tinobeat]

ugh, accusations of "hipster irony" is, without fail, a total projection from the accuser. There's nothing at all suggesting they're not genuine and enthusiastic about what they do, and the cover art has nothing "ironic" about it.

[stevethehouse]

Why do I have to convince you guys of anything? I'm simply giving my opinion and my perception of their work. If I perceive it to be hipster irony, it doesn't matter what their intent is because that's how I see it. If you guys enjoy their music, that's fine but to me it reeks of being a second-rate revival of the same kind of aesthetic that Pavement perfected 15 years ago.

Most of the reviews I've read are from music blogs, I don't really pay attention to online music publications like Pitchfork because they give the highest ratings to their advertisers.

[Patrick]

I don't really pay attention to online music publications like Pitchfork because they give the highest ratings to their advertisers.

Ha! We advertise with Pitchfork all the time... that must be why they gave the Cat Power record such a "high" rating.

[Patrick]

Hipster Irony:

http://www.matadorrecords.com/matablog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ole-760_rip_it_off.jpg

I guess you could call it irony... I see it more as a sense of humor. Coupled with some serious old-school fandom.

[stevethehouse]

Ha! We advertise with Pitchfork all the time... that must be why they gave the Cat Power record such a "high" rating.

They aren't going to give high ratings to everything, but if your label would consistently release sucky release after sucky release (hypothetical of course) do you think they would give them all piss poor ratings (I'm talking a 2 or a 3).

I'd be interested to know the lowest rating a Matador release has ever received, I bet it can't be lower than a 5 or a 6 (which should be looked at as average).

[stevethehouse]

After doing some research, the lowest Pitchfork rating to a Matador release in the past 4 years is giving Preston School of Industry's "Monsoon" a 5.0. That's pretty damn generous of them too if you ask me.

Overall though, Pitchfork gives Matador pretty high ratings, quite a few albums received 7's and 8's.

[Paul]

I guess you could call it irony... I see it more as a sense of humor. Coupled with some serious old-school fandom. I still don't see anything either ironic OR humorous about the TNV cover art. It's homemade-looking, which is an aesthetic bands have been playing around with for as long as bands have been releasing albums.

Also, stevethehouse is a troll.

[stevethehouse]

I still don't see anything either ironic OR humorous about the TNV cover art. It's homemade-looking, which is an aesthetic bands have been playing around with for as long as bands have been releasing albums.

Also, stevethehouse is a troll.

I love you too.

[vesper]

Why do I have to convince you guys of anything? I'm simply giving my opinion and my perception of their work. If I perceive it to be hipster irony, it doesn't matter what their intent is because that's how I see it.

there is this thing, see, that people call 'discussion.' opinions are all well and good, although it strikes me as really sad that the mataboard should be treated as a noisy bullhorn rather than a place for people to talk with each other about things that pertain to the artists in question.

If you guys enjoy their music, that's fine but to me it reeks of being a second-rate revival of the same kind of aesthetic that Pavement perfected 15 years ago.

oddly, pavement is probably a good example of hipster irony! i don't mean that as an insult to the band, label, or fans, either. wasn't part of their aesthetic the whole smug, self-aware posture combined with an unfuckwithable cool and a lot of really incredible songs?

Most of the reviews I've read are from music blogs, I don't really pay attention to online music publications like Pitchfork because they give the highest ratings to their advertisers.

this is yr first problem.

finally, the implicit suggestion that the only reason matador gets good ratings from pitchfork (not the only, first, or last website to review TNV, by the way) is cos of advertising is, uh, insulting, to say the least. i mean CALL ME CRAZY, i thought it was cos matador put out consistently good material?!?! man, the lies i have told myself...

[Paul]

CALL ME CRAZY, i thought it was cos matador put out consistently good material?!?! man, the lies i have told myself... Well, let's not get carried away.

[stevethehouse]

I brought up the "high ratings for advertisers" point to illustrate why I don't trust the reviews of places like Pitchfork, not to diminish the quality of Matador's releases.

I'm not going to argue with Pavement being a huge slice of hipster irony, especially in their early years. They did it much better in my opinion.

[Dave]

"regressive rock"

That's what I'm INTO!

[vesper]

I brought up the "high ratings for advertisers" point to illustrate why I don't trust the reviews of places like Pitchfork, not to diminish the quality of Matador's releases.

fair enough, but i'm not sure why blogs should be a more pure, honest, or accurate source of criticism. lacking an editor often entails lacking a sense of history and context. and the impulse to pounce, to be the first with an opinion, and an incredibly strong one at that, probably fucks with the quality of critical reception more in blogs than anywhere else.

point being this: you probably shouldn't swallow what a person says about the leaked copy of rip it off that s/he imported into itunes as s/he signed on to wordpress, blogger, whatever.

[johansen smith]

Well the cover is self-consciously ugly, but I guess I don't see why that's an indictment of the band or the album within-- I mean, I've defended Quasi's Hot Shit! cover so I guess I can defend this. As for the lo-fi sound, it is a gimmick but so what, if the songs weren't any good no one would be talking about this album. Trust me, "Hipsters" are still too busy "decoding" Strawberry Jam to mess with this album

[Dave]

After doing some research, the lowest Pitchfork rating to a Matador release in the past 4 years is giving Preston School of Industry's "Monsoon" a 5.0. That's pretty damn generous of them too if you ask me.

Overall though, Pitchfork gives Matador pretty high ratings, quite a few albums received 7's and 8's.

YOUSOCRAZY! "Monsoon" is easily the best PSOI album. A lost Matador classic and you can spare me any "that's my opinion" crap too. Your claim about advertising $ being tied to a record's review is also an oversimplification at best (and at worst just plain wrong.)
And while I'm at it I'll weigh in on "Hipster Irony." TNV have had a peace symbol on almost every record they've released but I don't think there's been anything to suggest that they are there for any ironic purposes. It seems all projected by you.
Dave

[vesper]

regarding blogs, actually, i shouldn't even say as much as i did, cos i don't know what blogs you read and, to be honest, some blogs are pretty quality. so instead i will say this: if you come on a thread titled "holy shit this album rules" and you start slagging off the object of everyone's affection as "stupid hipster irony" and you then proceed to say that you don't need to defend yr opinion cos you don't need convince anyone of anything, well, then you shouldn't be surprised if someone (i.e., me) goes into kill mode.

[stevethehouse]

fair enough, but i'm not sure why blogs should be a more pure, honest, or accurate source of criticism. lacking an editor often entails lacking a sense of history and context. and the impulse to pounce, to be the first with an opinion, and an incredibly strong one at that, probably fucks with the quality of critical reception more in blogs than anywhere else.

point being this: you probably shouldn't swallow what a person says about the leaked copy of rip it off that s/he imported into itunes as s/he signed on to wordpress, blogger, whatever.

Whoever said that they were? Who said I swallowed their opinion? All I said was that I read it.

Most Pitchfork writers pull from a database of recycled hipster opinions for their "historical context". Most of their writers are in their early to mid 20's and they write reviews like they've been following rock closely since the 50's. It's laughable, but you have to give the people what they want. It's the internet era of music, and it's no longer about the obscurity of the music you listen to, it's how much.

I'm checking out. It's tough being a troll.

[stevethehouse]

YOUSOCRAZY! "Monsoon" is easily the best PSOI album. A lost Matador classic and you can spare me any "that's my opinion" crap too. Your claim about advertising $ being tied to a record's review is also an oversimplification at best (and at worst just plain wrong.)
And while I'm at it I'll weigh in on "Hipster Irony." TNV have had a peace symbol on almost every record they've released but I don't think there's been anything to suggest that they are there for any ironic purposes. It seems all projected by you.
Dave

I want somebody to prove me wrong then. Find me a Pitchfork review of an album that has a poor rating (between a 0.0 and a 3.0) of someone who also advertises on the site.

I don't think I'm over simplifying anything. Pitchfork to me is the premiere hipster publication and hipsters (by my own definition) are inherently a naive over simplification of various elements of pop and counter-culture.

Now I'm checking out for real.

[johansen smith]

Whoever said that they were? Who said I swallowed their opinion? All I said was that I read it.

Most Pitchfork writers pull from a database of recycled hipster opinions for their "historical context". Most of their writers are in their early to mid 20's and they write reviews like they've been following rock closely since the 50's. It's laughable, but you have to give the people what they want. It's the internet era of music, and it's no longer about the obscurity of the music you listen to, it's how much.

Dude I know several former and current writers for Pitchfork, they're a lot better versed in music than you might suspect from their reviews-- it's like anything, people tend to gravitate towards certain genres/sounds in what they review. Though I'd say a 20-something probably doesn't need to be versed in music history to review the new Jay-Z album, and music reviewers tend to be braggarts in general so how can you be surprised that they'd act like know-it-alls? This is seriously an argument I would have seen being fielded five years ago by teenagers on the Saddle Creek board.

[Dave]

Whoever said that they were? Who said I swallowed their opinion? All I said was that I read it.

Most Pitchfork writers pull from a database of recycled hipster opinions for their "historical context". Most of their writers are in their early to mid 20's and they write reviews like they've been following rock closely since the 50's. It's laughable, but you have to give the people what they want. It's the internet era of music, and it's no longer about the obscurity of the music you listen to, it's how much.

I'm checking out. It's tough being a troll.

We'll no need to single out Pitchfork. Most so called music journalists pull from a database of record company supplied bios and press releases for pretty much everything.
Sure the internet has made it easier for tons of sub-par action but there's more than enough worthwhile music criticism on the net.

And Pittsburgh has a ton of bridges so life as a troll there should be pretty easy.

[vesper]

Most Pitchfork writers pull from a database of recycled hipster opinions for their "historical context". Most of their writers are in their early to mid 20's and they write reviews like they've been following rock closely since the 50's. It's laughable, but you have to give the people what they want. It's the internet era of music, and it's no longer about the obscurity of the music you listen to, it's how much.

this is such a tired fucking line with pitchfork that it's incredible anyone still pulls it out. look at their current staff roster, most of the people are well out of their early 20s and have been publishing for years. and gimme access to that database, i might finally figure out what goes on this homogeneous hipster mind that i hear so much about.

also, yr last two sentences basically undermine yr entire argument. if everyone is listening to everything, and if this is the acme of value, then all these other bands who'll never get their "due" thanks to TNV's sweaty pool of "stupid hipster irony" shouldn't worry, hmm? i mean, someone'll get around to 'em eventually.

[vesper]

I don't think I'm over simplifying anything. Pitchfork to me is the premiere hipster publication and hipsters (by my own definition) are inherently a naive over simplification of various elements of pop and counter-culture.


PRAY TELL. how convenient that you should have yr own harbored definition! this is seriously anti-communication.

[stevethehouse]

Dude I know several former and current writers for Pitchfork, they're a lot better versed in music than you might suspect from their reviews-- it's like anything, people tend to gravitate towards certain genres/sounds in what they review. Though I'd say a 20-something probably doesn't need to be versed in music history to review the new Jay-Z album, and music reviewers tend to be braggarts in general so how can you be surprised that they'd act like know-it-alls? This is seriously an argument I would have seen being fielded five years ago by teenagers on the Saddle Creek board.

I know Matt Lemay (of Get Him Eat Him fame) and he is in his mid-twenties, he also embodies the most stereotypical hipster image you can think of.

[stevethehouse]

PRAY TELL. how convenient that you should have yr own harbored definition! this is seriously anti-communication.

It is indeed.

[stevethehouse]

We'll no need to single out Pitchfork. Most so called music journalists pull from a database of record company supplied bios and press releases for pretty much everything.
Sure the internet has made it easier for tons of sub-par action but there's more than enough worthwhile music criticism on the net.

And Pittsburgh has a ton of bridges so life as a troll there should be pretty easy.

There is plenty of worthwhile music criticism on the net, I agree. I'm only singling out Pitchfork because I believe they are the worst offenders of everything that is poor about music criticism. Are other publications guilty of the same offenses? Absolutely.

There are plenty of bridges in Pittsburgh, unfortunately they are all falling apart!

[johansen smith]

I know Matt Lemay (of Get Him Eat Him fame) and he is in his mid-twenties, he also embodies the most stereotypical hipster image you can think of.
The most stereotypical hipster attribute I can imagine right now entails being your friend, so I guess you're right

[stevethehouse]

The most stereotypical hipster attribute I can imagine right now entails being your friend, so I guess you're right

He's not my friend. I just "know" him. If he were my friend I would speak a little more highly of him.

[Dave]

I know Matt Lemay (of Get Him Eat Him fame) and he is in his mid-twenties, he also embodies the most stereotypical hipster image you can think of.

Huh? Tall? Curly hair? What could you possibly mean? If you're going to call him out please back it up.

[stevethehouse]

Huh? Tall? Curly hair? What could you possibly mean? If you're going to call him out please back it up.

Attitude, not appearance. I'd give you a transcript of our conversations but unfortunately I left them back in Providence.

[vesper]

ok, running off yr definition of hipster above (which no matter how many times or ways i read it still doesn't make sense, so help me out), what elements of TNV are naive oversimplifications of pop and counter-culture?

this is an effort at anti-anti-communication. aka, real communication.

[9000]

I want somebody to prove me wrong then. Find me a Pitchfork review of an album that has a poor rating (between a 0.0 and a 3.0) of someone who also advertises on the site.


plastic fang got 2.5'd (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/18909-plastic-fang).

[stevethehouse]

plastic fang got 2.5'd (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/18909-plastic-fang).

We have a winner! The question is though... were Matador advertising on Pitchfork in 2002?

[johansen smith]

We have a winner! The question is though... were Matador advertising on Pitchfork in 2002?
Just stop.

[Dave]

Attitude, not appearance. I'd give you a transcript of our conversations but unfortunately I left them back in Providence.
I don't need a transcript, but a general overview might help.

[Seamus]

YOUSOCRAZY! "Monsoon" is easily the best PSOI album. A lost Matador classic and you can spare me any "that's my opinion" crap too.

You're not wrong (although there are only two PSOI albums so you are grammatically wrong). "Walk of a Gurl", despite its silly title, is easily the equal of "Kennel District" or "Painted Soldiers". Of course, there are some people who don't think those songs are great, but they are basically perverts.

119 plays for "Post Teen Drama" according to my iTunes. It's closing in on "Bad Looks"!!!

[tinobeat]

I'm pretty happy ignoring the opinions of anyone who still uses "hipster" as a catchall pejorative in 2008 ("stupid skinny dudes with white belts am I right LOL!").

There's plenty of ways to actually critique Pitchfork without ringing the meaningless and exhausted "hipster" bell.

[dola]

I'm not a fan of the cover at all but that's a silly reason to include in your case for disliking them. Eventually their sincere affinity toward peace symbols will evolve, along with their own political consciousness, to incorporate more 'radical' iconography; much like civil rights-era bourgeois liberal values of what can generally be called the young American left were supplanted by the marxist influenced anti-imperialist movements of the Vietnam War period.

Right now I'm more concerned with whether I want to pay $18 to see them open for the Super Furry Animals at Bowery. Probably maybe!



The symbol itself is a combination of the semaphoric signals for the letters "N" and "D," standing for Nuclear Disarmament. In semaphore the letter "N" is formed by a person holding two flags in an upside-down "V," and the letter "D" is formed by holding one flag pointed straight up and the other pointed straight down. These two signals imposed over each other form the shape of the peace symbol. In the original design the lines widened at the edge of the circle.[3]

[Benjamin]

Right now I'm more concerned with whether I want to pay $18 to see them open for the Super Furry Animals at Bowery. Probably maybe!

Whoa! I'm not going to muddy the waters of this discussion, but suffice it to say I am buying what TNV is selling.

I just saw them last night in Chicago at The Metro. It was $20 and I'm not a Super Furry Fan. Unfortunately, The Metro's schedule only allowed them a 30 minute set. It was a great set and seeing them live (this was my second time) is a little different because you hear the music without all the hiss of the recordings. The songs themselves stand out a little more. Plus, the folks in the band seem really charming (that's not a punk rock think to say, is it?). No crazy egos, no dizzying eccentric types, just cool down-to-earth midwesterners who seem to love what they're doing. Also, they were selling TNV T-shirts for $5! WTF, I think I paid $20 for a YLT shirt a few years back.

[Kid B]

Dear stevethehouse,
Friend, you forget that dissent from the Matador consensus is not acceptable in these forums. A difference of opinion will not be tolerated, and people will post ad nauseam until they've proved how much righter their opinion is than your own. Resistance is futile stevethehouse! Become a Mat-Bot and realize that everything Matador produces is the motherfucking bee's knees!
Thanks, Mat-Bot B

[johansen smith]

Dear stevethehouse,
Friend, you forget that dissent from the Matador consensus is not acceptable in these forums. A difference of opinion will not be tolerated, and people will post ad nauseam until they've proved how much righter their opinion is than your own. Resistance is futile stevethehouse! Become a Mat-Bot and realize that everything Matador produces is the motherfucking bee's knees!
Thanks, Mat-Bot B
It's more like we don't piss where we live

[9000]

It's more like we don't piss where we live

do you have an outhouse or something where you live?

[johansen smith]

Typical hipster response :rolleyes:

[9000]

fits almost as well as my skinny jeans.

[Paul]

Don't forget your white belt and checkered Vans.

[tinobeat]

Dear stevethehouse,
Friend, you forget that dissent from the Matador consensus is not acceptable in these forums. A difference of opinion will not be tolerated, and people will post ad nauseam until they've proved how much righter their opinion is than your own. Resistance is futile stevethehouse! Become a Mat-Bot and realize that everything Matador produces is the motherfucking bee's knees!
Thanks, Mat-Bot B

um, there's plenty of disagreement on the board, even w/r/t matador biz. People here tend to keep it pretty positive because its a waste of time and a bummer to get negative about bands, especially on the label's site. stevethehouse just happened to pull out the most tired, boring argument ever (a band is objectively bad because they're HIPSTERS!! OMG Look at my brave anti-pitchfork/hipster stance!!!), and he was called on it.

[vesper]

Dear stevethehouse,
Friend, you forget that dissent from the Matador consensus is not acceptable in these forums. A difference of opinion will not be tolerated, and people will post ad nauseam until they've proved how much righter their opinion is than your own. Resistance is futile stevethehouse! Become a Mat-Bot and realize that everything Matador produces is the motherfucking bee's knees!
Thanks, Mat-Bot B

you seem to think that stevethehouse had an intelligent, worthwhile opinion that he could back up when called on it. i'm willing to grant anyone any damn thought they like. it's when they pull shit like, "well it's my opinion, maaaan!" that i can't tolerate them anymore.

[Kid B]

you seem to think that stevethehouse had an intelligent, worthwhile opinion that he could back up when called on it. i'm willing to grant anyone any damn thought they like. it's when they pull shit like, "well it's my opinion, maaaan!" that i can't tolerate them anymore.
I can agree mostly with this statement vesper. But people just get so wrapped up in their opinions that they think their own is the standard of "worthwhile opinion." It's all so silly in the end anyway, you can like TNV or hate them, whatever; it's your opinion, no skin off my sack.

[stevethehouse]

you seem to think that stevethehouse had an intelligent, worthwhile opinion that he could back up when called on it. i'm willing to grant anyone any damn thought they like. it's when they pull shit like, "well it's my opinion, maaaan!" that i can't tolerate them anymore.

What makes your (or anyone else's) opinion more valid or as you say "worthwhile" than mine?

And if my explanation for why I don't like TNV doesn't meet your satisfaction, what can I do to tailor it to fit your needs?

If you look back, before I brought up the "hipster card" (which really seems to strike a nerve with people on here more so than other boards) I did bring up some really specific points about why I don't find their music to be pleasing to the ear. If you want to only focus the "hipster" portion of my argument, that's your choice but don't pretend like I haven't discussed the music itself.

[tinobeat]

If you look back, before I brought up the "hipster card" (which really seems to strike a nerve with people on here more so than other boards) I did bring up some really specific points about why I don't find their music to be pleasing to the ear. If you want to only focus the "hipster" portion of my argument, that's your choice but don't pretend like I haven't discussed the music itself.

a pointed accusation! a struck nerve!

Well, when you discussed the sonic aspects of it we were just having a regular disagreement about it. Then the hipster thing came and eyes rolled all over the place and that was about it. The nerve struck was more of a "oh, we're getting back into *this* again? 2002 was SO long ago..." than anything people here are taking offense at.

[vesper]

i think yr explanation for why you don't like TNV is perfectly valid. my entry into the conversation is when you said that you read "so many reviews" that called the band "revolutionary" (none of which you ever quoted or cited despite me asking you two different times). and when the basis for calling TNV's thing "stupid hipster irony" is these reviews that only you have read, you must understand that it comes off like straight trolling.

i already mentioned the point about discussion, like, two pages ago. if you can actually engage in a rational discussion (where empty categories like "hipster" don't come out as though they are proof of something) instead of just going on about yr sovereign opinions, i don't think we'd have an issue. if the word sets off a nerve with anyone, i think it is cos the speaker employing it acts like it is some sort of show-stopper. and because it has no content of its own, it's a way to stop conversation rather than engaging in it, and there are only a few things on the internet that i find more annoying than a discussion forum where there is no discussion.

i have no "need" for any opinion to be "tailor[ed]" to me. i love dissenting opinions! however, here's another question: why should anyone care what yr (or my, or tinobeat's, or dave's) opinion is? what good is an opinion that you can broadcast without being questioned about it? i am interested in why you have such a distasteful reaction to the band. i'm not interested in that on its own, though.

[stevethehouse]

I strongly believe any response to art is valid and there is no such thing as a stupid reason for liking or disliking something. What it comes down to aesthetic preference. Where you all may see "hipster" as an empty term (and that may be) but I still believe that there is a universal aesthetic tied to the word which is why I brought it up.

I'm sorry I didn't spruce up the word to make it in season for 2008, but I think the word is still relevant to certain facets of music despite the fact that it's been around for many years. For example: If I bring up words like "Greaser", "Punk", "Beatnik" & "Hippie" those phrases (no matter how over generalizing they may be) still conjure a certain image in most people's heads. Are those terms outdated? Maybe, but they still have a use in conversation. It's up to you whether you think any of those terms are derogatory, I think it depends on the context.

[tinobeat]

Right, but if you said "man, I hate Jefferson Airplane, its just standard hippie bullshit," or I'd think just as little of your assessment, because you're using cultural terms that have extremely dilute, vague and yet still very loaded meanings to judge a record, and that's honestly no way to judge a record.

[stevethehouse]

Right, but if you said "man, I hate Jefferson Airplane, its just standard hippie bullshit," or I'd think just as little of your assessment, because you're using cultural terms that have extremely dilute, vague and yet still very loaded meanings to judge a record, and that's honestly no way to judge a record.

But I didn't just say that about the TNV record, I brought up actual musical aesthetic problems that I had with their sound in addition to what I thought at the time was a rather innocuous off-the-cuff remark about it being stupid hipster crap. It's matter of it just being words on the screen, I think. If I would have said it aloud it would've been in a very joking sarcastic tone.

[tinobeat]

yeah, this could go on and on, but lets just leave it at "we disagree on whether the lo-fi tone is gimmicky or not.."

good game good game

:)

[stevethehouse]

Now there's something we can agree on! ;)

[Futureman]

Crap. I'm always late to parties. Someone email me next time there's a mataboard smackdown.

[winterversion]

You and me both, Futureman.