Bob Is A Sell-out

[mudshark]

i noticed on amazon.com that if you pay the giant corporate entity in advance for a copy of the new gbv, you can get access to a stream of the enitre album on-line. IMMEDIATELY.

now... as a record store owner, i can tell you, that if i put the new album out for sale before the tuesday release date, the penalty for getting caught can be SEVERE.

and also, in my capacity as a record store owner, i am proud to say that i have turned MANY people onto GBV. the distributors from which i buy are always surprised at how many units my store sells. GBV would not have sold a fraction of what they have sold in my city if it weren't for my efforts (and of course the other gbv fans who get people stoked on the band and let them know where it can be bought.)

i suspect that there are a lot of other stores that made sure gbv was always in stock, and made sure that the band got a lot of valuable in-store play. this is the best kind of marketing an indie band can get, because most of the time it is the only kind it can afford.

obviously, now gbv is able to afford things that most bands can't but, it is never nice to see the successful betray the ethos that contributed to the success.

maybe bob p should take a moment to ponder what exactly it was that amazon.com ever did for them back in the days when they were on scat and through the first batch of releases on matador. maybe he would think twice about giving the giant corporate retailer a leg up on all of the indie stores that actually helped the band sell music when they bloody well needed that kind of help.

oh yeah, i played jellyfish reflector in the store today, and it is available here for $17.99 i bought a lot of copies of that when it was re-issued, and have sold most of them, without inflating the price.

amazon has it for $42.99 for all the suckers out there that are willing to pay that much for it.

a little word to the wise... the packaging for jellyfish is so... not special,... that a photcopy of it would look just as good on your shelf, and a burnt cd sounds just as good as the original. and who could frown on file sharing the music of someone who has the degree of ethics and loyalty that bob and gbv are presently displaying.

imagine... the god of indie rock giving amazon.com such a big stick to beat the indie stores with....

and don't say it is matador's fault not bob's. bob writes his own ticket. he has the kind of "no" power that most artists don't because gbv is such a cash cow for the label.

in these interesting times, an artist can not expect the loyalty and respect of fans who could easily get music for free, unless the fans see the same level of loyalty and repsect from the artist.

i mean... no one thinks twice about burning britney spears CDs.

but people religiously shell out good money to collect gbv.

with this amazon.com promotion, the distance between britney and bob has decreased.

[johansen smith]

my friend, you posted this on my GBV Forum too, are you cheating on me/it/us?!?!?!?

[debaser]

I seriously doubt having access to a stream of the entire album is incentive to buy it online rather than from a local record store. Anyone who is desperate to hear the album before the release date would've downloaded it off soulseek or some such. In fact I doubt Bob himself even had anything to do with it, it's not as though the CEO of the Amazon global empire called the Captain up and asked him if he'd like to make a stream available. I can just see Bob's thoughts now... "Hmm.. this would be a GREAT way to offend independant record store owners.. LETS DO IT!"

Or not.

[johansen smith]

however, Bob did have everything to do with "Jellyfish Reflector" being $42.99 on Amazon.

[bitterfruit]

You're all crack smokers. Bob ain't got nuttin to do wit sellling his loot on Amazon.

[mudshark]

no... i don't think bob had anything to do with amazon price gouging jellyfish.... amazon, having no social conscience, and having paid the same amount to get their copies as i did, will charge the maximum amount that people will pay... which is another reason they should not be rewarded with a leg up on the indies...

and... no... bob isn't spending time thinking about how to damage indie stores, the problem is, as a leader in the indie music scene (or someone that is widely perceived to be at any rate), he isn't thinking about what he can do, if anything at all, to preserve integrity in the industry.

and... if this promotion would not provide incentive for people to buy the cd from amazon, then amazon would not be doing it. give the devil his due... he ain't that dumb ass... amazon is smart about marketing and retailing.

and... sorry about cheating on the other message board... but i guess you are posting here too right jo?

the reason i feel the need to vent on this particular subject is that, when bob sells out (he has) and matador sells out (they have) it can start a chain reaction... and this is the wrong time for people to turn on the elements of the industry that helped them get something worth selling out.

and... i compete with a store that derives a substantial part (most) of it's income from piracy...

and therefore, i would expect a higher degree of ethics and regard for the industry from artists i respect, because, for every piece of music that leaves my store, an artist got a royalty.

if people on this board, are interested in why everything from and including isolation drills has sucked... then i suggest examining changes in bob's approach to the business, which coincides with isolation drills, as a possible source for the disappearance of the man's muse.

let me contrast by pointing out that my other favorite band, the melvins, had a brief flirtation with the bigs, ended it and are putting out better material that ever. i think bob could turn the slide around... but not by continuing on his present course...

TVT was the bigs, and was a mistake, i mean... marketing bob as a divorced drunk with a lot of angst to get out was no way to promote isolation drills even if it did suck. it was a mockery. but going back to matador, which admittedly has one of the finest back catlogues of music one might imagine, was no big improvement. matador is certainly not a small indie anymore... and is exhibiting parasitic corporate behaviour.

i was at a show during which bob read a lukewarm review of universal truths on stage...

he was livid about the luke warm nature of the review... and went on about how he deserves more respect because of the length of his career and the overall quality of his output.

it is my opinion that if he wants to continue to make music without embarrassing himself, he needs to get his approach to the business in line with his approach to creativity.

[captain]

total bullshit.

I find it humorous that one would insinuate that once you've been with an indie, you should practice the marketing of your music in a way that comports with what the "indie" morals or ideals are, whatever the fuck that is anymore. The monolithic thinking is getting sick, and that, friend, is what is ruining integrity in music. Integrity is about being an individual and true to yourself. Integrity is about not falling left or right to the whims of the "community." Integrity is following what you want to do--as long as your not hurting anyone (which GBV certainly is not, for a variety of reasons which I'll try to get into). This making of a new corporate mindset (first it was the majors, now the fucking indie scene is becoming a sick mindset of its own) is really starting to fuck variety in the music and the goodness of making art on ones own terms.

Do you really think that someone who peruses Amazon and is not into "indie" (sigh) type of music is the kind of person who is going to regularly drop money at a hole-in-the-wall? Um, no. In such a scenario, is it likely that a store like yours would be patronized by a person like that? Um, no. Now, is it a GOOD thing that a person like that might be turned on to GBV because of a feature they saw on Amazon? Well, I sure know my answer, how do you respond?...

Now, how about the normal GBV fan--does this Amazon thingamajig hurt small stores in regards to them? Well, let's see. I would think that such a fan would more likely be familiar with smaller record shops. Now, the promotion at Amazon is not a price thing, it's just a feature--so would the hardcore GBV fan be so happy about the ability to stream the album before release (something which many people can do already without the help of Amazon) that they would buy the record from Amazon? I think probably not.

The important thing to remember is that this is not a price difference issue, it's just a little promotion that in the long run is inconsequential. So, the fans of GBV will likely not care for it, and people who pick up GBV because of the promotion can be turned on to it. Well, I think that it's a great thing for more people to be exposed to the music, but if you only want to think about YOURSELF mudshark, and not the people who make music that you like and consequently give you a JOB, it might be a good thing for people like YOU, when new GBV fans might drop by your store to look around if they can't find GBV records in larger shops--so even from a selfish point of view, you might be able to benefit from this!!

But the bottom line, to suggest that GBV is being somehow unethical about this is complete shit--whether or not they were directly involved--they want people to hear their music (as, surprise, many artists do) and to say that GBV shouldn't do this is in fact limiting the reach of all types of bands and preventing wider exposure of good music to outside the fucking underground hovel. Mindsets like yours do not promote diversity in music or "fight the machine." Rather, such mindsets create a new machine. Congratu-fucking-lations.



God Bless GBV.

[rog]

Mudshark is one of these retards that gets off on drawing some incomprehensible line between the artistic and the business aspects of music. If anything, being a grown man with grown kids and not having a full-time teaching gig have been just a FEW of the reasons that his songwriting skills have changed. And not necessarily for the worse. As most of us know, some of the music that Mudshark is bashing was written long ago, like Glad Girls, so there goes THAT theory. And the indie posturing...please. Listen to the music and quit worrying how some independent record store owner feels about Amazon.com. I don't live my life patronizing certain stores or music labels based on what some trust-fund hipster would consider to be cool by there demented standards. We all have the freedom of choice; the leftist indie elite have become so fanatical in their opposition to corporations that they are becoming fascists themselves. Let's not forget that most of the dorks here have bragged at some point about getting top dollar for selling rare vinyl records on e-Bay. It's supply and demand; if Forever Since Breakfast brings in $150, then good for the seller. The buyers are controlling the prices, not the sellers. Sell Jellyfish Reflector for as much as you want; if some kid gives you $1,000 for it, whether it's on e-Bay, Amazon, or this bozo's independent record store then good for you. You want to regulate Amazon's prices, asshole? That's called communism. And that has never been a successful alternative to a free market society. And it never will be.

And as for the original poster, there's a response on Disarm The Settlers that he should tattoo word-for-word on his aging, bald, fat ass.

[Jason]

I don't get your second paragraph ("if i put the new album out for sale before the tuesday release date, the penalty for getting caught can be SEVERE"). Are you really taking offense at the common practice of pre-ordering?

[mudshark]

WHO COULD BLAME ME... LOOK WHAT THIS TIT WROTE TO ME...

I NEEDED TO RESPOND BUT I WOULD RATHER KEEP THE UGLINESS PRIVATE... UNLIKE THIS CREEP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This rant isn't about Bob, Amazon, Matador, or the 'ethos' that you're whining about. It's all about you, man. I hope you realize what a fucking crybaby you sound like, especially since every kid who shops at indie stores has probably already downloaded the album from Kazaa or some other file-sharing website. Have you taken a look at the gbv.com website lately, jerkoff? Have you seen that the band is going to try and sell tickets directly so that they don't get reamed up he ass by TicketBastard? Did you notice that, you fucking ape? Bob's not trying to stick it to anyone, he's just trying to make some cash. Unless you take a loss on every cd you sell, that's exactly what you do too, you hypocrite. People like you want their favorite bands to die penniless and unheralded by the mainstream for some fucking reason that I don't understand. Do we like Bob? Yes we do. And we should all be rooting for him to make back some of the money that Matador, the venues and the rest of the music industry outright steal from him and from every band (indie or otherwise) in the fucking United States. Poor Mr. Indie Record Store Owner. You sad sack of shit. Did you really think you were going to come on here and blast Bob and get away with it? What you need is a beating, sir.

And apparently nobody ever taught you some Adam Smith economics. You're an independently-owned record store with no real aspirations. You don't compete (nor SHOULD you compete) with a store the size of Amazon. You should be more concerned about what the other elitist Comic Book Guy-like independent record store owners do. I don't know when exactly whining became a bonafide artform in this society, but people like you act like everybody owes you something. Corporate America doesn't owe you dogshit, you greedy little fuck. You take in as much as you're willing to work for. Crack open a goddamned high school Economics book and learn about supply and demand, jerkface. If the kids want to shop at Amazon, then they'll shop at goddamned Amazon and who the fuck are YOU to judge them?!?!?!? I'll tell you a little secret...just keep this between you and me, ok? I shoped at HMV last week. I know that I've lost some cred points with your fat pathetic ass, so I guess this means we won't be hanging out together anymore. As if I'd ever even talk to some self-important hypocrite like you.

And let me give you a little lesson in customer service while I have you ear. I hardly ever go to indie record stores anymore because I really don't need the fucking attitude that I get from your average clerk at one of these fucking places. Don't whine about the corporate chains unless you're willing to understand that the amount of capital they generate allows them to require a certain level of competence from their employees. I love going into the mega giant places because even if the smiling clerk behind the desk isn't going to be my best friend, at least they know that if they fuck up, there will be consequences. This is how things are done in the real world, not your alcoholic little lemonade-stand record store fantasy. People like you make the chains out to be so evil; if your shitty little store was so great, you'd have customers lined up around the block. If you want to compete with the big boys, then quit your whining and start running the joint like a real owner would, you cockless loser.

And as for the Jellyfish Reflector thing, that's why most of us shop around, asshole. There are plenty of people that wouldn't even have access to Jellyfish Reflector because they live in small rural areas that don't have any hip, cool (*cough*) record stores like yours in their towns. At least Amazon gives them the opportunity to buy it. Not eveyone's going to get in their car and drive half-assed across the countryside for the opportunity to buy your stupid $14 copy, you inbred obsessive-compulsive.


And please stop taking credit for putting Guided by Voices on the map. I don't know what the hell gives you the right to imply that you're responsible for their success in your little corner of the indie rawk universe. You egomaniacal fuck. Go back to your seedy little bad-customer-service fucking hole-in-the-wall you call an establishment and look in the goddamned mirror, you aging asshole. Take a good long look at yourself because that is the face of the biggest cunt on the planet. You fat ugly fuck.

[rog]

You would rather keep the ugliness private?!?!?!?!?

Oh, ok, so that's why you cluster bomb every GBV-related discussion area on the whole goddamned internet to spew your hatred and jealousy of some musician who never did a thing to you?!?!? You've got some damned issues Hairy Mary. Maybe you should just stay off the internet completely and torture your employees with your sterling commentaries. Leave the rest of us out of it.

[Ladt]

It'd make my day to see this thread closed.....

[rog]

I disagree, Ladt. I think it would be a lot of fun to watch Mr. Mudshark Media Inc. to continue beating horses, long after they're dead. It's not often that we get these Yosemite Sam types come in here and stir shit up. I, for one, like the cut of this bloke's gib. Now, if we can only shift his attention away from MY CAREER to some ACTUAL MUSIC DISCUSSION, we might have the makings of one heeesterical situation.

[mudshark]

i consider it closed...

good day to you all... and hats off to "captain" for his informed and intelligent post.

[johansen smith]

Originally posted by bitterfruit
You're all crack smokers. Bob ain't got nuttin to do wit sellling his loot on Amazon.

I keep forgetting my <sarcasm> tags.

[Patrick]

rog and mudshark, don't post private emails on public bulletin boards. Basic net etiquette. I've deleted those posts.

mudshark, Matador arranged for the pre-release stream with Amazon, not Bob. It may or may not have been in the details of the marketing plan sent to Bob and his management, but it originated with the label, not the artist (like most such retail marketing). I tend to agree with captain that this helps spread GBV's music to a wider audience, rather than cannibalizing on the indie stores who helped bring GBV to prominence in the first place. Matador does plenty for the indie stores too - it's not a zero-sum game.

Patrick

[bitterfruit]

I don't don't think the smaller indie stores need to worry about Amazon as much as they do with Insound.

[Patrick]

My feeling is that there will always be a sizeable number of people who want to browse physical objects, talk to human beings and make shopping trips - along with instant ownership and no freight charges.

At the same time, a sizeable number of people will put up with the inconveniences of ordering online in return for not having to leave the house, particularly good deals etc.

Patrick

[Jason]

I know I end up buying new releases online a lot because I want vinyl most of the time and the locals are real inconsistent about stocking it. I buy wax from them whenever I can, but if it's something like new Guided by Voices, which I want ASAP I can't depend on any stores here to have it on release day.

I'd much rather buy from a store than do mailorder. If I lived in New York City or San Francisco I'd buy over the net a LOT less.

[mudshark]

patrick:

i did not post any private e-mails... and you have not deleted any of my posts that i am aware of, but apparently you did (wisely) delete one of rog's posts.

and... i am glad to hear that matador does things for indie stores, although i am not sure what that is, and i am sure that matador will never become as important to indie stores as indie stores have been to matador. so, patronizingly pointing out that matador helps indies as though that is like chairty work is kinda assanine. such stores don't need anything from matador as long as they know what the next good music is before the chain stores do. matador is now becoming the domain of mall stores...

depending on your history with the label, you may or may not know exactly how matador went from selling records and cds at pavement shows to cutting marketing deals with amazon... but suffice it to say, that good music, even when it doesn't have the marketing push of a big publisher much of the time finds an audience based on the goodwill of record store owners, and indie promoters especially.

so matador got to the point it is at a) because the music is awesome b) because people who were in a position to push it (esp. record store workers, and indie concert promoters) pushed it simply because they liked it and finally c) because of a whole bunch of other reasons but especially a) and b).

and to everyone... my real point all along has been that if someone wants to make the cash grab... go for it, but don't pretend that it ain't been done...

for example, pollard kinda rings insincere when he says in a recent interview published in magent:

"We still get five cases of beer , two for before the show and two during the show and one for after... I can tell we're more high-profile now because we get pizza after the show."

i may be reading too much into that statement, but if bob wants people to think that gbv is still the same old gbv because the most important trapping of success that the band enjoys is free pizza, then... well...

and, of course, the reason that he wouldn't launch into proudly describing such things as high-profile marketing deals with multinational corporations as being one of the clues that success has arrived, is because the marketing slant put on bob pollard is the "hero to the everyman" slant.

gbv fans are supposed to think that bob could be their drinkin' buddy... which may or may not be true, but what matters is whether the marketing succeeds in selling more gbv albums for the multinational corporation that controls matador, which used to be the gleaming example of what an indepedent label could accomplish while preserving repsect for the art...

alas... it is no more... and my reason for posting to this board is just to vent my regret over the fact... that matador, whose cds i used to buy just because they were from matador, and i know that means (95% of the time) it is really fucking good, may no longer be about the music first... and the man who is primarily responsible for "a string of albums that have come to symbolize American independet rock" (MAGNET sep/oct 2003) has come to symbolize selling out.

but don't worry music fans, when you come to realize that what used to be fresh and vital to you is dried up and compromised, just get on down to the place in your locality that is always up on the next cool music... that's right... your local independently owned music store.

that is where most of you will have bought your first gbv album. that is where most of you will make your next important discovery.


cheers,

tony

[Paul]

Three assumptions about you, Tony, based on your apparent need to make a spectacle of yourself:

1) You've never actually talked to or even met Robert Pollard.
2) You care less about indie music as a tangible resource than you do indie music as a social signifier (which is odd, seeing as you claim to run a record shop).
3) You should try masturbating on occasion.

[captain]

Originally posted by Paul

2) You care less about indie music as a tangible resource than you do indie music as a social signifier (which is odd, seeing as you claim to run a record shop).


wow. that was very well said Paul.

everyone--

This is obviously a thread that stirrs up annoyance and other negative emotions--myself included. This person is incorrect and makes leaping assumptions on many levels and refuses to listen to objective realities by continuing speculation on the character of people he does not know and the objectives of people at which he is simply guessing. We really shouldn't dignify this ranting self-gratification with any more responses. We all feel strongly about GBV--let's channel that energy somewhere else, and refuse to use it here. I'm not responding anymore to anything remotely concerning this issue either here or at Disarm the Settlers.

Have fun this Tuesday everyone!!! :)

captain

[mudshark]

PAUL...

I CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED THE IDEA OF MEETING BOB POLLARD AND MASTURBATING IN THE SAME POST...

DON'T BE ASHAMED... I DON'T THINK YOU ARE ALONE AMONGST THIS DROOLING BUNCH OF MISFITS.

[Dave]

People, people. Please, this shit is out of hand. Let's back up a bit and focus on real problems for real people.
Mudshark: Rather than respond to the many things in your posts that i took issue with I will say this: What store is your's? Who do you buy from? What can Matador do to help you feel better about this? If it is within reason I assure you that we'll be all over it.

We're here for you.

Take care
Dave

[mudshark]

thanks for the thought dave...

but i'm not trying to shake a favor out of matador... but on second thought... if you could get justin broadrick on the blower and suggest that he get crackin on a new techno animal album, that would be nice... for all of his fans, not just the mudshark

just had to vent, and i chose matador and gbv to vent at because i hold those two entities in high esteem and hope that they set an example of excellence and integrity for the rest of the industry... and sorry if i ruffled people's feathers... although some reactions were very strong indeed... holy smokes bob should be proud of the tenacity of his fans.

[debaser]

I gotta say I'm 99% sure mudshark doesn't even own a record store. He just doesn't seem to have a grasp on basic concepts of business and music marketing. In the unlikely event that he's telling the truth and does own a store, it is likely to be very shortlived. But damn, it sure will have a lot of cred. *sarcasm*

"matador is now becoming the domain of mall stores..." does he even realise how much of a moron he sounds?

[cle-rat]

god forbid anyone would ever want to earn some money in order to create and maintain a home and a family. sheesh.

[Dave]

Mudshark
Venting is fine. A rant filled w/ill conceived perceptions of how and why we make our business decisions is another thing. What is your problem here? Is it that you just don't like Amazon. That is fine, but your specific complaint is a lot of hooey. Stores always play records before they are released, but they rarely take requests, at least for customers that they are not familar with. If you had a listening station you could put the GBV record in before the street date so your faithfull customers could check it out, but no store is gonna let someone come in and listen to stuff all day long without ever buying anything. So Amazon is asking for a commitment on the front end. That's fine, it certainly might work well with someone's geekenstein existence if they work at a computer all day long, and that is just a simple reality of business today. Some consumers are going to be swayed by the convience of buying on line. If that is too much to handle then you might need to find a new line of work. But I really doubt that an offer like this will sway someone who is not already into GBV.
Anyway, my offer (hardly charity) still stands. We're here to help, get the music to the people etc. Bring it on.
Dave

[bannerlemon]

I enjoyed the little indie v. Amazon debate/rant/foolishness, although it could be a bit nasty. I noticed that the Jellyfish Reflector that is $40 on Amazon is an import release, causing the inflated price.
I love the Amazon site--I can't think of a site that is as well organized or as easy to navigate. Also, they don't charge tax!

tb

[Patrick]

Without prejudice to any participant, I think it's time to close this particular thread.

Patrick